Confused: how does a 4-pin XLR balanced output to headphones work?
Dec 26, 2016 at 5:14 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 23

zstryder

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I've been looking at headphone amps and have noticed some of them (Schiit Jotunheim, Oppo HA-1, etc.) have 4-pin XLR balacned outputs that work with headphones that can be recabled to work with 4-pin XLR. I'm a little confused by how this is supposed to help. I'm assuming the way a cable like this one works is that there's one pin for the signal and one pin for shielding per channel (2*2 = 4 total). If that's the case, how is it any different from a TRS 1/4 or minijack, which also mixes the signals into a single cable at the last stretch? Or is it because there's extra processing within the dac/amp needed to convert the balanced signal to a TRS output jack which inevitably degrades it? 
 
In my head I'm imagining if your source/dac/amp is fully balanced (internal design and otherwise) all the way through, wouldn't you ideally want to have each channel of your headphones with its own cable? i.e., one XLR connector per channel?
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  But I noticed with some units like the Oppo HA-1, the XLR balanced outputs are pre-amp, not post-amp - so that's not even an option. 
 
Sorry, if it wasn't super clear this wasn't meant to be a troll post - I've been trying to read up on this and just haven't found any good resources yet! Would duly appreciate someone setting me straight here. 
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Dec 26, 2016 at 7:19 PM Post #2 of 23
In balanced XLR there is a differential pair for each channel. Left channel has one + wire and one - wire, and likewise for Right. This is beneficial because the pair of wires can be twisted together so that the noise they each receive is the practically the same. A signal that is present on both parts of a differential pair is called a common mode signal. In a differential amplifier or a speaker, common mode signals cancel each other out, only the differential signal is amplified. The common mode noise is removed and you're left with the desired differential signal, so no shielding is needed.
 
Dec 26, 2016 at 9:16 PM Post #3 of 23
I've been looking at headphone amps and have noticed some of them (Schiit Jotunheim, Oppo HA-1, etc.) have 4-pin XLR balacned outputs that work with headphones that can be recabled to work with 4-pin XLR. I'm a little confused by how this is supposed to help. I'm assuming the way a cable like this one works is that there's one pin for the signal and one pin for shielding per channel (2*2 = 4 total). If that's the case, how is it any different from a TRS 1/4 or minijack, which also mixes the signals into a single cable at the last stretch? Or is it because there's extra processing within the dac/amp needed to convert the balanced signal to a TRS output jack which inevitably degrades it? 

In my head I'm imagining if your source/dac/amp is fully balanced (internal design and otherwise) all the way through, wouldn't you ideally want to have each channel of your headphones with its own cable? i.e., one XLR connector per channel? :confused:   But I noticed with some units like the Oppo HA-1, the XLR balanced outputs are pre-amp, not post-amp - so that's not even an option. 

Sorry, if it wasn't super clear this wasn't meant to be a troll post - I've been trying to read up on this and just haven't found any good resources yet! Would duly appreciate someone setting me straight here. :)  


On the "old style balanced headphone" wiring with twin 3XLR only two of the pins are actually connected on each connector, for +/- for each channel. This allows for "balanced" transmission, wherein there isn't a common ground wire. On typical TRS you have +/+/- where each channel gets its own + and they share a ground (this may be three physical wires, or it may be four physical wires with two of them joining at the connector). There's supposed benefits to getting away from the common return like reducing crosstalk or whatnot (ditto for the 3 vs 4 wire thing), but generally speaking what "balanced drive" does is provide greater voltage swing for the load (usually you have the - side running inverted so instead of like 0-to-4V you have like -4-to-4V). If you look at the NuForce HA-200 as an example, in single-ended mode it provides stereo output, but in "balanced" mode you get mono output, with one of the output sections providing an inverted signal, and it increases voltage swing (and therefore power) significantly.

There's no "processing" going on here; 4XLR (or TRRS) is just a smarter way to cable this on a single plug. I don't know why this wasn't done historically, it just wasn't. I think Sony was/is the first to promote TRRS for balanced wiring on some of their mobile headphones and devices (and they've proposed this as an industry standard), I'm not sure where 4XLR came into the mix, there's also other connectors that've been used including some proprietary models for portable amps. If I had to guess, I'd say 3XLR was popular specifically because of products like the HA-200 (but we're talking ten-twenty years ago, when Headroom started doing it) and you were using two stereo amplifiers with a common volume control.

"Fully balanced" is well into the realm of marketing fantasia though. In studio/pro audio land, you want balanced transmission over long distances and/or in noisy environments for common mode noise rejection, where you have separate +/- and shield (all three pins are actually connected), but in home settings this is largely unnecessary (the runs aren't as long, and there's generally a lot less noise). It also doesn't matter how that transmission is achieved "in the box" because the whole goal is that your analog cabling isn't picking up noise (or I should say, is better rejecting the noise its being exposed to). The idea that you must have dual DACs and all that is not related to common mode noise rejection, but it does help to sell "higher end" products. A "balanced" headphone amplifier (as in, it has inverting complementary output stages to provide increased voltage swing) is not "balanced" in the same way pro audio wiring refers to the word (meaning common mode noise rejection). It may accept balanced wiring input, but it doesn't have to - there are balanced amplifiers that accept SE inputs, and SE amplifiers that accept balanced inputs, and neither is "wrong" or "weird" - it really just depends on the device. There are certainly advertisers that would have you believe the entire chain needs to be "fully balanced" in order to achieve some higher level of transcendence (or whatever) but that's largely fluff. A lot of lower impedance/higher sensitivity headphones also don't derive much benefit from "balanced" wiring because they don't need the voltage swing - the big market for that kind of wiring is usually low sensitivity and/or high impedance loads, and more recent planar magnetic headphones that can take gobs and gobs of power.


In balanced XLR there is a differential pair for each channel. Left channel has one + wire and one - wire, and likewise for Right. This is beneficial because the pair of wires can be twisted together so that the noise they each receive is the practically the same. A signal that is present on both parts of a differential pair is called a common mode signal. In a differential amplifier or a speaker, common mode signals cancel each other out, only the differential signal is amplified. The common mode noise is removed and you're left with the desired differential signal, so no shielding is needed.


Yes and no. You're right on what balanced wiring does in the pro audio world, but not in how its working with headphones. There is no "common mode noise rejection" aspect to the headphone wiring, because again it isn't about connecting separate hot, cold, and shield, its about running differential drive to increase voltage swing. It's much more similar to how speakers are wired - its not some twisted pair common mode thing, like you'd see in signal wiring (and you generally don't want twisted-pair wiring for transducer loads because it has a lot of inductance and can be really vile for the amplifier to drive). Shielding is not properly part of this discussion - in studio/stage wiring you still have shielded wiring (in many cases it has 3-4 layers of shielding, and is still balanced transmission) because again the idea is to kill the noise, but for headphone (or speaker) wiring you aren't running shielded wiring anyways, and there's no need for it. Generally speaking I would say "yes please" to any shielded signal wiring, be it SE, balanced, whatever - its never going to hurt you and it isn't very expensive. But "balanced headphones" were not originally done as a means of "getting rid of shielding" nor does balanced signal wiring negate the use or need for shielding.

EDIT

Zeus be praised! The original HeadRoom write-up on balanced headphones is actually still on line:
https://www.headphone.com/pages/balanced-headphones-guide

And as far as I know and have ever heard, they are entirely in claiming they invented this. I'm not sure why they chose the connections they did, but I would venture their choices are what influenced things for a long time. The link has pictures that show exactly what they're trying to achieve as well. Keep in mind: at its core, this is marketing literature, so its ultimately trying to sell you something (in this case something that Headroom no longer produces), so there's bias as a result of that.

EDIT 2

The HiFiMan cable also shows another example of how balanced transmission can be achieved - with each channel on its own TRS plug. This is pretty common in studio gear to use TS for SE mono and TRS for balanced mono. Especially if XLR is too big or clunky.
 
Dec 27, 2016 at 5:52 AM Post #4 of 23
Thanks! That's a fantastic breakdown - wish I could give you some stars or have this stuff stickied somewhere. The HeadRoom write up helps too, but as you say there's definitely a healthy dose of marketing thrown in there. I think the one sentence TLDR is this right here:
 
There's supposed benefits to getting away from the common return like reducing crosstalk or whatnot (ditto for the 3 vs 4 wire thing), but generally speaking what "balanced drive" does is provide greater voltage swing for the load (usually you have the - side running inverted so instead of like 0-to-4V you have like -4-to-4V).

 
Using balanced wiring over long distances makes total sense for noise rejection, but I didn't get why you would need it for short runs like from your source to desktop amp to headphones. And then using the word "balanced" to describe the the independent driving of each signal certainly didn't help, because the reality is they're using the word "balanced" to describe two completely different things. Honestly, I don't think I ever would have gotten to this conclusion by reading more product sheets. 
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There's no "processing" going on here; 4XLR (or TRRS) is just a smarter way to cable this on a single plug.

 
You're right - I think what I meant regarding processing was that dac/amps that do "balanced drive/processing" must be doing some converging of signals at the output stage in order to support unbalanced output via TRS, in addition to the balanced output via 4XLR. 
 
I think Sony was/is the first to promote TRRS for balanced wiring on some of their mobile headphones and devices (and they've proposed this as an industry standard),

 
That would have been nice! My guess is TRRS has so many competing use cases at this point it's probably a lost cause (TIL about OMTP, I knew about CITA but was unaware of OMTP). Perhaps that's why 4XLR came about?. In any case, appreciate the lengthy write up - this was super enlightening! 
 
Dec 28, 2016 at 5:25 AM Post #5 of 23
I'm not entirely sure, but I think the 4-pin XLR idea came originally from AKG for the K1000 and their own amp for it. 
 
HeadRoom put two mono amps in one case as the HeadRoom Blockhead and had the outputs as 3-pin XLR female sockets (presumably for safety so that they couldn't be shorted easily). 
 
I tend to look at the balanced amp issue in reverse of normal. Someone designing an amp has a choice of a variety of different circuit topologies and a balanced or differential amp is just one of them. It happens to be one that requires a different plug/socket system to separate the signal return for each channel. 
 
Personally I wish everyone would switch to the new 4.4mm Pentaconn. It would be much simpler.
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 4:40 PM Post #6 of 23
Curious follow up question. Why do the Hifiman cables terminate with TRS at the headphones? Shouldn't TS suffice (2 x 2 channels?) if the input is 4XLR?
 
I notice that similar designs for the HD700 and Oppo do terminate with TS. Is there some sort of marketing mumbo jumbo here, or are they just reusing surplus parts? 
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 5:30 PM Post #7 of 23
Curious follow up question. Why do the Hifiman cables terminate with TRS at the headphones? Shouldn't TS suffice (2 x 2 channels?) if the input is 4XLR?

I notice that similar designs for the HD700 and Oppo do terminate with TS. Is there some sort of marketing mumbo jumbo here, or are they just reusing surplus parts? 
I use TS on my HE-400S with no problems on a balanced cable I made and can use the HD-700 cable for single ended. My original cable broke on me it was my fault freak accident. Just haven't got around to fix the cable yet.
 
Dec 30, 2016 at 6:56 PM Post #8 of 23
  Curious follow up question. Why do the Hifiman cables terminate with TRS at the headphones? Shouldn't TS suffice (2 x 2 channels?) if the input is 4XLR?
 
I notice that similar designs for the HD700 and Oppo do terminate with TS. Is there some sort of marketing mumbo jumbo here, or are they just reusing surplus parts? 


The OPPO headphone cables will work with the HiFiMan headphones. There isn't a special reason for the TRS plug as far as I know.
 
Dec 31, 2016 at 1:45 AM Post #9 of 23
You're right - I think what I meant regarding processing was that dac/amps that do "balanced drive/processing" must be doing some converging of signals at the output stage in order to support unbalanced output via TRS, in addition to the balanced output via 4XLR. 


The DAC technically doesn't have to do anything, but if you're after a "fully balanced" output you'll need complimentary inverted drive for the "-" signal. That requires extra channels (usually this is done with two stereo DACs running in mono, where each DAC provides +/- for one channel). But it could also send out balanced transmission with a transformer coupling (or you could do this yourself with an adapter). On the headphone amp side, as Currawong points out it represents a different topology, so if it can drive "both" it probably does need different signal routing internally (e.g. it takes the SE output from one leg of the balanced output) to accommodate that. Usually amps that "do both" will have significantly more output for their balanced drive.

That would have been nice! My guess is TRRS has so many competing use cases at this point it's probably a lost cause (TIL about OMTP, I knew about CITA but was unaware of OMTP). Perhaps that's why 4XLR came about?. In any case, appreciate the lengthy write up - this was super enlightening! 


As far as I understand it, TRRS is the newest proposal for balanced drive - 3XLR came about with Headroom (again afaik), and I'd be willing to accept Currawong's answer that 4XLR was from AKG as fact (I had completely forgotten about the K1000's companion amplifier), which probably makes it older (technically speaking). I do not remember, however, 4XLR being popular a few years ago, whereas 3XLR was relatively common for balanced amps (and not just from HeadRoom). I think 4XLR makes more sense because its a single connector, but then again I think the standard TRS connector makes more sense still because its more common. :p


Personally I wish everyone would switch to the new 4.4mm Pentaconn. It would be much simpler.


The what? :confused: :xf_eek:


Curious follow up question. Why do the Hifiman cables terminate with TRS at the headphones? Shouldn't TS suffice (2 x 2 channels?) if the input is 4XLR?

I notice that similar designs for the HD700 and Oppo do terminate with TS. Is there some sort of marketing mumbo jumbo here, or are they just reusing surplus parts? 


I could potentially see some marketing argument that they're using "two conductors" for one leg, but I can't see a good reason other than that.

There are plenty of headphones that take 2xTS as removable connectors, which could theoretically be "re-wired" for balanced drive quite easily as a result. Ditto if they've got 4-conductor internal wiring.
 
Dec 31, 2016 at 2:55 AM Post #10 of 23
   
Personally I wish everyone would switch to the new 4.4mm Pentaconn. It would be much simpler.


The what?
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A 4.4mm TRRRS plug created by Sony engineers that is used on the Z1R and associated components. It is 5-pole, so can supported single-ended and balanced in the same plug, and is large enough (unlike the annoying 2.5mm plug) that it creates a good connection, yet is much smaller than the regular 6.3mm TRS plug, making is suitable for portable use. Below on the left. I think especially if the Korean and Chinese DAP manufacturers can be persuaded to switch, everyone else will follow pretty quickly.  Then we can abandon the need for having more than one type of cable for any regular headphones.
 

 
Aug 7, 2017 at 9:42 PM Post #13 of 23
I have the Sony TAZH1ES DAC/AMP and love it.

I have been wondering about the 4.4mm Pentaconn cabling/connectors, and the long term viability of that "system". I've got a couple Moon Audio cables with the Pentaconn termination. But I have other amps without the 4.4mm Pentaconn. So I am going to have to get a 4.4mm Pentacoon to XLR4 or 1/4 adaptor. (which probably doesn't exist right now.)

So do you think others Headphone amp manufacturers will adopt the Sony Pentaconn?
 
Aug 7, 2017 at 9:44 PM Post #14 of 23
I totally doubt it.
 

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