Focal Clear headphones
Jan 15, 2018 at 9:43 PM Post #1,861 of 12,500
I tried pairing the Utopia with the HDVA600, not a good experience as far as I'm concerned. The Utopia's bass seems to be very sensitive if the amplifier's gain is too high, unfortunately the gain of the HDVA600 is non adjustable. Fearing the drivers would eventually be damaged, I invested in a very adjustable V280. I'm not sure if the Clear will be as gain sensitive, but it may be something to take into consideration.
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 9:24 AM Post #1,862 of 12,500
I tried pairing the Utopia with the HDVA600, not a good experience as far as I'm concerned. The Utopia's bass seems to be very sensitive if the amplifier's gain is too high, unfortunately the gain of the HDVA600 is non adjustable. Fearing the drivers would eventually be damaged, I invested in a very adjustable V280. I'm not sure if the Clear will be as gain sensitive, but it may be something to take into consideration.

Due to the Clear’s efficiency, I can see that happening with a very powerful amp that has no gain control.
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 10:59 AM Post #1,863 of 12,500
I may be wrong, but isn't there a gain control on the back of the HDVA600 for the RCA inputs?
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 11:21 AM Post #1,865 of 12,500
Jan 16, 2018 at 11:32 AM Post #1,866 of 12,500
I'm going to venture a guess that rather than amp pairings playing a role in perceived bass differences, maybe it has to do with volume matching (or lack thereof). I didn't see exactly how @S-O8 is doing volume matching. But people don't consider enough how each of us individually adjusts volume levels based on our own sensitivities and preferences. For example, if you are sensitive to 10kHz peaks, that might be the limiting factor in setting your volume, so if one headphone has more 10kHz energy than another you might lower that volume more in comparison to the other headphone. For objective testing, some people argue volume matching based on pink noise, others say you should pick a single tone frequency. Let's see how this plays out in this specific Utopia vs Clear scenario. Using Tyll's innerfidelity measurements if we align Utopia vs Clear at 1kHz, we can see that the Clear does indeed have slightly more bass quantity than Utopia.

output.png


But let's say in your own listening preferences you are trying to volume match to 1.5kHz (just 500 Hz different) instead because that is where you hear both headphones to be about equal loudness. In that graph comparison you can see Utopia has more bass quantity than Clear. So depending on how you choose to volume match, it is easy to see how perceptions of relative bass quantity can change.

output.png

This is a really interesting post and might go to explain a lot with respect to how people (including Tyll) can have such massively differing opinions of the same headphone. I always assumed the main factor was biology and the makeup of our ears, but here you can see that volume levels can make a rather notable difference in and of themselves. I wonder if people like Tyll increase the volume of more bass emphasised headphones to compensate for the added darkness or bass impact, and in doing so exasperate any harshness of upper frequencies. I personally listen to my headphones at relatively low volumes, as I have rather sensitive hearing, so upper-frequency glare is something that is generally less bothersome to me, compared to others I know.
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 11:46 AM Post #1,867 of 12,500
I'm going to venture a guess that rather than amp pairings playing a role in perceived bass differences, maybe it has to do with volume matching (or lack thereof). I didn't see exactly how @S-O8 is doing volume matching. But people don't consider enough how each of us individually adjusts volume levels based on our own sensitivities and preferences. For example, if you are sensitive to 10kHz peaks, that might be the limiting factor in setting your volume, so if one headphone has more 10kHz energy than another you might lower that volume more in comparison to the other headphone. For objective testing, some people argue volume matching based on pink noise, others say you should pick a single tone frequency. Let's see how this plays out in this specific Utopia vs Clear scenario. Using Tyll's innerfidelity measurements if we align Utopia vs Clear at 1kHz, we can see that the Clear does indeed have slightly more bass quantity than Utopia.

output.png


But let's say in your own listening preferences you are trying to volume match to 1.5kHz (just 500 Hz different) instead because that is where you hear both headphones to be about equal loudness. In that graph comparison you can see Utopia has more bass quantity than Clear. So depending on how you choose to volume match, it is easy to see how perceptions of relative bass quantity can change.

output.png

Thanks for posting this. I think this may well be the issue ...
 
Jan 16, 2018 at 12:49 PM Post #1,868 of 12,500
I'm going to venture a guess that rather than amp pairings playing a role in perceived bass differences, maybe it has to do with volume matching (or lack thereof). I didn't see exactly how @S-O8 is doing volume matching. But people don't consider enough how each of us individually adjusts volume levels based on our own sensitivities and preferences. For example, if you are sensitive to 10kHz peaks, that might be the limiting factor in setting your volume, so if one headphone has more 10kHz energy than another you might lower that volume more in comparison to the other headphone. For objective testing, some people argue volume matching based on pink noise, others say you should pick a single tone frequency. Let's see how this plays out in this specific Utopia vs Clear scenario. Using Tyll's innerfidelity measurements if we align Utopia vs Clear at 1kHz, we can see that the Clear does indeed have slightly more bass quantity than Utopia.

output.png


But let's say in your own listening preferences you are trying to volume match to 1.5kHz (just 500 Hz different) instead because that is where you hear both headphones to be about equal loudness. In that graph comparison you can see Utopia has more bass quantity than Clear. So depending on how you choose to volume match, it is easy to see how perceptions of relative bass quantity can change.

output.png

Hi, good point, but, just to thrown some wood onto the fire:

I'm wondering if the 1.5Khz volume alignment is demonstrative of the theory?
I mean, almost all of the audible range bellow and above 1.5khz on utopia 2nd chart is higher than Clear (thats the range where you hear "volume"), unless for the sub-bass and very high treble.
On my reading, in the 2nd chart the Utopia user is listening at a noticeable higher volume than the Clear user, it didn't get to that volume in error "volume matching by ear"

For me, the real difference is in the shape of the low frequencies curve... Bellow 50 hz Utopia has an accentuated drop, not the case with Clear. So if we consider percussion, acoustic drums like in many jazz, etc. I guess Utopia bass will be much closer to Clear, but for music that extends and fills the range of the 20hz to 50hz like EDM, etc. Clear will sound fuller and more "Bass heavy", without beeing heavy, I would say closer to reality.

My 2 cents
 
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Jan 16, 2018 at 1:54 PM Post #1,869 of 12,500
This is a really interesting post and might go to explain a lot with respect to how people (including Tyll) can have such massively differing opinions of the same headphone. I always assumed the main factor was biology and the makeup of our ears, but here you can see that volume levels can make a rather notable difference in and of themselves. I wonder if people like Tyll increase the volume of more bass emphasised headphones to compensate for the added darkness or bass impact, and in doing so exasperate any harshness of upper frequencies. I personally listen to my headphones at relatively low volumes, as I have rather sensitive hearing, so upper-frequency glare is something that is generally less bothersome to me, compared to others I know.

I definitely think biology and individual ear resonances affect this. However, each individual's ear resonances and head related transfer function (HRTF) will emphasize (and de-emphasize) the same frequency areas within that particular individual such that doing relative comparison testing of different headphones should have the same affect (e.g. if your biology emphasizes 2 kHz more than average, it will do so for every headphone you listen to). But it is pretty crazy how different every person's biology will alter how they hear the same thing differently. Here is a great video demonstration of what pink noise played through HD600 sounds like to 10 different people. I linked the video to the specific time point (10:55) that the demonstration happens, but the entire lecture is worth watching and helps shed light why using EQ should not be stigmatized in this community and instead why it is absolutely important because of just how different our own biology dictates how we hear.

I suspect most reviewers doing careful comparative listening find some method to volume match. In all my reviews I always add a section about specific comparisons to other headphones and when I do that testing my method is to always use the same source gear and same tracks. I use a sound level meter and have a cardboard panel placed over one ear side for a good seal with a hole carved in the center that I place the microphone meter through. I personally run pink noise and volume match to within about 0.1-0.2 dB for both headphones. But I know even in this methodology there is error and when I find a preferred volume level for one headphone, matching volume in this manner to the other headphone might not actually be the preferred volume level I would normally listen at for that particular headphone. There's just so many possible reasons each of us report mixed subjective findings when discussing headphones.

Thanks for posting this. I think this may well be the issue ...

No problem, I just wanted to provide more possible explanations for why you might be hearing Utopia vs Clear in a different way than most others are reporting. Though I wouldn't completely rule out amp pairings either, particularly if your amp you are testing both headphones on has a higher output impedance (> 1 Ohm or so) as measurements even show that higher output impedance amps tend to bloat the bass the closer you get to violating the common "1/8 rule" damping factor. Even Solderdude's measurements show that with Utopia (red is 0.2 Ohm output impedance and green is 120 Ohm output impedance):

fr-utopia-r120.png



And his Focal Clear measurements also show a similar pattern when changing amp output impedance (red is 0.2 Ohm output impedance and green is 120 Ohm output impedance):

120-ohm-l.png


But at least according to his measurements it still does seem Clear overall has flatter and more bass quantity than Utopia, even when bloating the bass with higher output impedance amps.

Hi, good point, but, just to thrown some wood onto the fire:

I'm wondering if the 1.5Khz volume alignment is demonstrative of the theory?
I mean, almost all of the audible range bellow and above 1.5khz on utopia 2nd chart is higher than Clear (thats the range where you hear "volume"), unless for the sub-bass and very high treble.
On my reading, in the 2nd chart the Utopia user is listening at a noticeable higher volume than the Clear user, it didn't get to that volume in error "volume matching by ear"

For me, the real difference is in the shape of the low frequencies curve... Bellow 50 hz Utopia has an accentuated drop, not the case with Clear. So if we consider percussion, acoustic drums like in many jazz, etc. I guess Utopia bass will be much closer to Clear, but for music that extends and fills the range of the 20hz to 50hz like EDM, etc. Clear will sound fuller and more "Bass heavy", without beeing heavy, I would say closer to reality.

My 2 cents

Very true, I agree in the 1.5 kHz matching the Utopia still looks to have more volume overall. But again, I just don't know what method people are using to volume match and as I mentioned earlier volume matching in itself is tricky, not precise, and overall a subjective experience. But the point is I do agree that Clear "should" sound more bass heavy compared to Utopia for most people, even I heard it that way when I auditioned both back to back on the same source with the same music. I was just trying to help explain why it is possible others might hear it differently.

And for anyone that finds all this stuff interesting, if you have more questions or thoughts on this feel free to PM me if your comments don't pertain directly to the Clear (to keep this thread on topic). I really do like discussing this stuff and finding new resources. I have degrees in both electrical engineering (digital signal processing) and neuroscience and my career is basically understanding the neural basis of human perception and how our brains interpret external stimuli, which happens to include auditory signals that are relevant here.
 
Jan 17, 2018 at 11:40 AM Post #1,870 of 12,500
I tried pairing the Utopia with the HDVA600, not a good experience as far as I'm concerned.

It´s actually not just the high gain, but also the high output impedance of the HDVA600-800 (and also HDV 820). They all have an output impedance of around 40 or so ohms, which will boost the bass on all Focal high end headphones and make it less well controlled due to the poor damping factor. The output impedance on those amplifiers is optimized for 300+ ohm dynamic headphones.

This review for example shows what a 120 ohm output impedance does to the Focal Clears: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/focal/clear/ (with 40 ohms it´s not as bad, but still bad enough for it to be a good match).
 
Jan 17, 2018 at 1:25 PM Post #1,873 of 12,500
I am listening to "In a trance" of the jazz trio called Spark. Listen at 5:15 to 7:18 for such a cool drum solo! I am listening to it when A/Bing the Clear with the Utopia. The Clear was on first and thats what caught my ear so to speak. After bouncing back and forth with parts of this section, It was apparent to me that I felt like I needed to turn up the Clear a bit louder to try and get closer to the detail the Utopia was able to produce. Obviously that won't do the trick but its something you do when you want to hear more detail ha.

Still the Clear is so impressive... Depending on what you listen to (source quality) the differences will be small or large as you can imagine.

You are doing QUITE well for your self if you have to "settle" and get the Clear over the Utopia. It is no push over.
 
Jan 17, 2018 at 1:32 PM Post #1,874 of 12,500
Clear is coming today. Can't wait to hear it. I will write some impressions against Ether C Flow and Aeon Flow Open.

Same recommendation @MTMECraig just gave you. I think no matter what headphone a person tries for the first time, there should be some brain, ear, or break in adjustment before you really enjoy them. Although, I was impressed since I put them on.
 
Jan 17, 2018 at 1:38 PM Post #1,875 of 12,500
I am listening to "In a trance" of the jazz trio called Spark. Listen at 5:15 to 7:18 for such a cool drum solo! I am listening to it when A/Bing the Clear with the Utopia. The Clear was on first and thats what caught my ear so to speak. After bouncing back and forth with parts of this section, It was apparent to me that I felt like I needed to turn up the Clear a bit louder to try and get closer to the detail the Utopia was able to produce. Obviously that won't do the trick but its something you do when you want to hear more detail ha.

Still the Clear is so impressive... Depending on what you listen to (source quality) the differences will be small or large as you can imagine.

You are doing QUITE well for your self if you have to "settle" and get the Clear over the Utopia. It is no push over.
An A/Bing of the Clear vs Utopia will always put the Utopias first... It's the longer time listening that makes the Clear shine. Warmer and less fatiguing than the Utopias.
 

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