Sennheiser HD800 S Impressions Thread (read first post for summary)
Jan 4, 2018 at 10:48 PM Post #2,896 of 8,574
Not to toot my own horn or anything, but note I am not one who ever stated (or believed or heard) that the HD800S had more bass distortion than the HD800

You should toot your own horn a little Tristan, you're probably my favorite reviewer on YouTube. You don't make the reviews about yourself, you just give your honest opinion on how things sound. There are so many annoying reviewers out there who get carried away with themselves, and try to entertain more than review, I find them hard to stomach. Your taste in headphones seems to mirror my own as well. The only thing I think you're nuts for is selling your HD800S!

can we forget about graphs and enjoy some good music in these amazing cans!? :D

My thoughts exactly! I don't give a damn about measurements, charts or graphs, only how they sound on my ears. I start seeing graphs in any review, and I mentally check out. To me, the HD800S is go-to my favorite headphone, they're like virtual reality for my ears.
 
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Jan 4, 2018 at 11:00 PM Post #2,897 of 8,574
Sennheiser is saying that the HD 800 S has extended low frequencies relative to the HD 800. Just look at the video from Alex Grell himself below. I also hear something in the sub bass area of the HD 800 S, so I agree with Sennheiser.



However, there really isn’t much extended bass according to the frequency response. I decided to take a look on Tyll his website and found multiple measurements of the HD 800, HD 800 S and even modded HD 800. Notice that all 3 HD 800 S have higher distortion. So it’s not just 1 measurement, he is measuring it consistently across multiple headphones.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800SBAFstack.pdf

So for now, to me it looks like Tyll is more on the money as Sennheiser themselves are saying the HD 800 S has more bass despite not really showing it in the frequency response.
 
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Jan 4, 2018 at 11:26 PM Post #2,898 of 8,574
Are you Tyll? I’m suspicious...lol
 
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Jan 4, 2018 at 11:37 PM Post #2,899 of 8,574
Are you Tyll? I’m suspicious...lol

Ofcourse not. I don’t think he even posts on this site. I’m just presenting the fact that Alex Grell, the big engineer from Sennheiser has said that the HD 800 S has more extended bass while the frequency response is not showing it.
 
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Jan 4, 2018 at 11:41 PM Post #2,900 of 8,574
Ofcourse not. I don’t think he even posts on this site. I’m just presenting the fact that Alex Grell, the big engineer from Sennheiser has said that the HD 800 S has more extended bass while the frequency response is not showing it.

That's one set of measurements. I'd love to see Head-Fi's FR sweep of the HD800 / HD800S.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 11:50 PM Post #2,901 of 8,574
I actually looked to see if Cardas made a 4.4mm version, but they don't sadly. I use a Kimber Cable for 4.4mm on my Z1Rs, I wish they offered a version for the HD800S.
You could always order one from Norne. They have the Ediolic 4.4mm connector, and they do make cables for the HD800 series. I got mine from them.
 
Jan 4, 2018 at 11:53 PM Post #2,902 of 8,574
The bass of the HD 800 is clearer to me while the HD 800 S went more into the direction of the HD 650. So what Tyll is saying makes sense to me. Atleast with the HD 800 and HD 800 S that I have.

So let’s assume there is no additional distortion. Then where is the extended bass frequencies coming which the HD 800 S has according to Sennheiser?

I’m curious to know if there are other theories that could explain how there could be more extended bass while there is no real sub bass observed in the frequency response.
 
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Jan 5, 2018 at 12:18 AM Post #2,903 of 8,574
The bass of the HD 800 is clearer to me while the HD 800 S went more into the direction of the HD 650. So what Tyll is saying makes sense to me. Atleast with the HD 800 and HD 800 S that I have.

So let’s assume there is no additional distortion. Then where is the extended bass frequencies coming which the HD 800 S has according to Sennheiser?

I’m curious to know if there are other theories that could explain how there could be more extended bass while there is no real sub bass observed in the frequency response.

If you knew, would you sleep better or love your headphones more? There’s a discrepancy with Tyll’s research so why go back and fourth about this and that. The research Jude provided is a world wind and deserves to be on a “wall of fame”.
 
Jan 5, 2018 at 12:32 AM Post #2,904 of 8,574
The only discrepencies that I am seeing is Jude his measurements and what Alex Grell has said. The extended bass is coming from somewhere.

People here on head-fi are so attached to their belongings that when curious people like me who wants to get to the truth gets personal comments.
 
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Jan 5, 2018 at 12:40 AM Post #2,905 of 8,574
can we forget about graphs and enjoy some good music in these amazing cans!? :D
I always do! But I also like tech stuff. Always with headphones and music on :wink:
 
Jan 5, 2018 at 1:53 AM Post #2,906 of 8,574
My experience:

when I've bought my Hd800S, I compared them to my Hd800. Out from the box the 800S sounded restrained and way less extended in the bass than the 800. At the point I wanted to return them. Then I let the 800S burn in, and after that the bass gained extension, even if I felt the bass still a bit less extended than the 800, which rumbled better. The gain in extension was true, as I had the 800 for comparison/benchmark. Then I've sold the 800: the better equilibrium of the S won me over the better extension of the 800. But what component was burning in?

I regained the bass rumble and extension in the 800S, and surpassed maybe the 800, by simply tightening of one step the headphones, to be firm on the head, while before it seemed to me more comfortable a bit looser, but clearly was too lose and lost sealing (the headphone weight rested mostly on top of the head and the headphone was not firm, while in tighter position the weight is better redistributed among top and sides of the head) . The deep bass rumbled again and now I find difficult to say I want more bass from my S, I find it perfect.
Then I tried my father's 800, with the same setting of the cups height, it sounded right, but the cushions didn't fit me well like the ones of my 800S. Some memory foam behavior is going on here. Also Innerfidelity measurements showed 800's with no variations in the bass, and 800's with huge variation vs position.

My (to be verified) idea is: cups cushions "sealing" is important for the bass performance (extension, presence and maybe distortion) of the 800/800S, both in cups height and cushions "memory" shape/wear.
 
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Jan 5, 2018 at 11:59 AM Post #2,907 of 8,574
The bass of the HD 800 is clearer to me while the HD 800 S went more into the direction of the HD 650. So what Tyll is saying makes sense to me. Atleast with the HD 800 and HD 800 S that I have.

So let’s assume there is no additional distortion. Then where is the extended bass frequencies coming which the HD 800 S has according to Sennheiser?

I’m curious to know if there are other theories that could explain how there could be more extended bass while there is no real sub bass observed in the frequency response.

You made the classic mistake of assuming since the HD 800 S bass sounded different than the HD 800, that it must be distorted.

You seem to imply here that in your impression, the HD 800 was "clearer" yet you recognize that the HD 800 S was "more extended". These two things are a bit at odds with each other. Having extended bass means having bass present which means having the overall bass presentation more clear.

A frequency response is good for some things, but you can't just isolate a single section of the frequency response, and assume you can consider that in a vacuum without the rest of the frequency response context. The frequency response represents the overall "tonal balance" of the headphone, and you need to consider the entire thing. In terms of detail retrieval (this includes hearing bass extension, details you never heard before such as background coughing, and so on), part of that is a function of the balance of the frequency response and which frequencies are emphasized in aggregate. You hear that cough because the frequency band the cough exists in is different than the previous sound source you were using. The same is true of bass, bass extension, and so on.

The HD 800 has sections of elevated treble, which can tilt the tonal balance and how you interpret the sound. By tuning the HD 800 S to have less treble, the bass becomes more balanced and potentially clearer and better extended to the listener.

Finally, at the end of the day, everybody needs to understand there are pretty fundamental problems with measurements. They will never be perfect. They are an imperfect tool we can use to try to have a discussion about things, but especially when it comes to bass response, there are a lot of potential issues and problems with putting a headphone on a dummy head and expecting the result to sound exactly the same as when you hear them. People's ear canals are different, different frequencies might be emphasized in your particular HRTF, and so on. It's possible Sennheiser tuned the headphone to a different target HRTF standard than Jude or Tyll's measurement set up.

My advice to anyone, when measurements differentiate from your listening impressions, trust your ears. Your enjoyment of the headphone is the only thing that matters. As a corollary, don't parrot things you hear online and try not to let other people's flawed impressions influence your own. Things like the HD 800 S have zero bass distortion. If you don't like the tonal balance of the HD 800 S, just say that. Don't pretend it has distortion (or, likewise with the HD 660 S, pretend that one has a "grainy treble").
 
Jan 5, 2018 at 1:29 PM Post #2,908 of 8,574
Wouldn't it be easier to ask Sennheiser or Axell Grell what they think about Jude's measurements?
In my opinion measurements are important, however listening is more important because not everyone's ears and head shapes are the same. Of course, measurements are used in headphone designing process but believe me, headphones also go through process of listening and then fine tuning.

Everything comes down to enjoyment and sound quality. Does it really matter? That 2nd harmonic distortion. If you don't like HD800S, there are a lot of headphone brands out there to choose.
 
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Jan 5, 2018 at 5:06 PM Post #2,910 of 8,574
Yeah, we should ask the sponsor about the divergent measurements posted by the forum owner that support the sponsor. I’m sure we’d get nothing but the facts.

Well personally I'd be more inclined to trust Sennheiser and their engineers and their state of the art equipment as opposed to hobbyists with hand built measuring devices, which are really limited by environment when it comes to distortion measurements. When you look at distortion, look at the % of distortion we're talking about. To get really accurate readings, you need to be using an anechoic chamber and proper calibrated dummy-head. How many hobbyists have that equipment?

The stuff the hobbyists do on basic frequency response etc is admirable and pretty helpful. But taking the hobbyists THD and IMD readings as gospel over someone with far better set-ups is (IMO) just silly. Yes Sennheiser has a stake in this, but they have also proven over a number of years to be extremely competent in their design. I for one would trust their feedback on the situation until proven otherwise.
 

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