[AntonNZ]

I would recommend instead of focusing on the subjective aspects of this question and diving straight into to weeds it would be better if you first ask yourself, what's your budget? even if money it's not a question for you, you should put a limit on how much are your willing to spend on a DAC and Amp, specially if it's going to be your first dive into this endless rabbit hole.

Second would be: what headphones do I have or want to get and given that, what kind of power do I need to drive them to their fullest potential, within reason of course.

If this is your first experience with high end personal audio, going straight away for the MJ3 might not be a good idea because you're not going to be able to appreciate what this amp brings to the table, I would suggest you go for something more modest like an magni unity or something like that, and then decide if you want something more and better.

Also you should considere if your needs would be better serve with a desktop solution or a more portable one.

1. budget for one component (dac or amp or headphone)is roughly 2K NZD. MJ sits exactly on it. anything more is way too expensive for me... I can only afford 1 component a calendar year (so it's either a dac or amp or headphone)
2. headphones are hd6xx, focal celestee and I have plans for hifiman within the budget limits (I will wait for discounts)
3. @ngohw I like rock, metal, indie, post-rock, djent, pop. I don't enjoy the high-frequency sound too much, or at least not when it's pitching, but I like bass. I like stage and separation, or I think that I like it. It is difficult to say, I don't have much to check in order to properly explore.

@Erick Muller , I did think to buy modius + magnius and then upgrade or something similar, but my wife said that I would waste way too much money on incremental upgrades and should buy a good end product from the start. and I agree with her, she is a wise human being who knows me way too well.

 

[Erick Muller]

1. budget for one component (dac or amp or headphone)is roughly 2K NZD. MJ sits exactly on it. anything more is way too expensive for me... I can only afford 1 component a calendar year (so it's either a dac or amp or headphone)
2. headphones are hd6xx, focal celestee and I have plans for hifiman within the budget limits (I will wait for discounts)
3. @ngohw I like rock, metal, indie, post-rock, djent, pop. I don't enjoy the high-frequency sound too much, or at least not when it's pitching, but I like bass. I like stage and separation, or I think that I like it. It is difficult to say, I don't have much to check in order to properly explore.

@Erick Muller , I did think to buy modius + magnius and then upgrade or something similar, but my wife said that I would waste way too much money on incremental upgrades and should buy a good end product from the start. and I agree with her, she is a wise human being who knows me way too well.

then go for the MJ3 and budget for a good DAC, I would recommend the Holo Audio Cyan 2 if you want something around the same price and there you go, another alternative to the MJ3 it's the flux labs Mentor, which it's significantly more powerful and a little bit more expensive unfortunately, there's also caveats regarding possible shipments and fulfillment of orders given that they're located in kharkiv, ukraine, but as of now, they have not miss any order and they're still given good support to their products.

 

[Simon Patten]

To confuse you even further, I have another perspective.

In the computer industry we have a phrase, 'garbage in, garbage out'. Applying that to audio, I believe that the most important device in the chain is the DAC as lesser amplifiers and speakers/headphones will perform at their best with a good source whereas feeding a good amplifier with a weaker source will reveal its short-comings.

My suggestion would be to buy the best DAC you can first, along with a cheaper amp if necessary or if the DAC doesn't have a headphone amp, then buy a good amp next year. The new amp will not only be a nice upgrade in itself but it will reveal what the DAC is fully capable of. The same with headphones after that.

Your wife is a wise woman. Some of us go into this with an objective, some as a hobby. If it is to be a hobby then lots of fun can be had trying different equipment but if you just want to build a nice system, it's better to think long term, save up, and do it in as few steps as possible.

Regarding the S17 Pro, my thoughts are that if you can place it so that there is plenty of air flow around it, the heat is worth putting up with as it sounds amazing. Don't plan on putting anything on top of it and if it is to go in a rack or somewhere without much air around it, it could be a problem and a class AB amp might be better. The same applies with the MJ3, class A amps sound great but get very hot.

 

[Lindholdt]

And just to complete the circle of confusion: I find that DAC's matter the least in a setup, and I would always spend more on headphones/speakers and amplifiers, than the DAC
I can A/B DAC's in my system, switching between them instantly and without interruption, and when doing so, I'm having a very hard time hearing any difference, when both options are volume matched.

It just really goes to show how subjective this hobby is. Nothing is really correct or incorrect, at least when we are talking about what "good sound" is, it's all about what happens inside your head and ears. So audition as much as possible yourself, and listen to advice regarding technical stuff, but make up your own opinion about the subjective things, is my advice.

Ohh yeah, and I've just ordered the S17 Pro, and is very excited to get it and hear how I feel it stacks up against my Violectric V200

 

[Majuto]

1. budget for one component (dac or amp or headphone)is roughly 2K NZD. MJ sits exactly on it. anything more is way too expensive for me... I can only afford 1 component a calendar year (so it's either a dac or amp or headphone)
2. headphones are hd6xx, focal celestee and I have plans for hifiman within the budget limits (I will wait for discounts)
3. @ngohw I like rock, metal, indie, post-rock, djent, pop. I don't enjoy the high-frequency sound too much, or at least not when it's pitching, but I like bass. I like stage and separation, or I think that I like it. It is difficult to say, I don't have much to check in order to properly explore.

@Erick Muller , I did think to buy modius + magnius and then upgrade or something similar, but my wife said that I would waste way too much money on incremental upgrades and should buy a good end product from the start. and I agree with her, she is a wise human being who knows me way too well.

I don't dare to to give you any detailed advice, except one: if you think the sound chain as a whole, it might be a good idea to think it so, that the nearer the part of the chain is you, the more important it is soundwise. Headphones are on your ears(1), they go to amp(2), amp is connected to DAC(3) and then the cables(4). I think this rule gives soundwise the best end result. First the headphones, you really want and the rest will follow.

 

[bagwell359]

I believe that the most important device in the chain is the DAC as lesser amplifiers and speakers/headphones will perform at their best with a good source whereas feeding a good amplifier with a weaker source will reveal its short-comings.

Assuming an adequate amp (some corner case headphones have unusually specific needs) is met then headphones being a transducer is far more important than an amp.

DAC's: DAC's have more weight in the sound than amps. However, Delta-Sigma (D-S) DAC's at the lower price range do sound quite similar to each other. This observation often leads to the statement that all DAC's are the same, which would then make the choice/debate moot. However those lower end D-S DAC's are far less musically correct than every R2R DAC I have heard over the past 18 monhs: Schitt Gungnir/Yggy/Bifrost 2, Musician Pegasus, Chord DAVE. I have heard some higher end D-S DAC's that do sound better than their cheaper counterparts - but haven't heard enough of them recently to place them vs R2R.

However, DAC's are still evolving, so its quite possible in 5 years your choice might be well overtaken - although my 8 year old Gungnir A1 still holds up well. Amps having a simple job are not evolving very quickly at all, so the chance of being outstiped in 5 years is less.

If I were in your shoes - I'd get the best R2R DAC I could afford, then scoop up the amp next year (if you use speakers, consider a used Schiit Ragnarok 2). Following year bang out headphone - but be prepared to use a PEQ if you get a HFM headphone as they are generally transparent/bright in character.

 

[bagwell359]

I can A/B DAC's in my system, switching between them instantly and without interruption, and when doing so, I'm having a very hard time hearing any difference, when both options are volume matched.

What DAC's, pray tell?

 

[Lindholdt]

What DAC's, pray tell?

I've had quite a few Delta Sigma based DAC's, but currently I have the SMSL DO100 and the ESS based DAC in the Fiio R7. Just yesterday I delivered back the Mojo2 to my local dealer, as the difference was too small, for it to make sense for my to keep the Mojo. This one being significantly different in its approach, I had hoped to hear a larger difference, but I could not. I'm not saying there isn't a difference for me, It's just very small.
Tested with the Violectric V200 and HE1000 Stealth's.
Ohh, and I do work in the HiFi business, so I've heard a lot of different gear, but on speaker systems and never been able to A/B instantaneously, like I can now.

Have you tried A/B'ing your DAC's with them volume matched?

Which DAC would you suggest I give a try, to hear a significant difference to the D-S DAC's I already got?

 

[bagwell359]

I've had quite a few Delta Sigma based DAC's, but currently I have the SMSL DO100 and the ESS based DAC in the Fiio R7. Just yesterday I delivered back the Mojo2 to my local dealer, as the difference was too small, for it to make sense for my to keep the Mojo. This one being significantly different in its approach, I had hoped to hear a larger difference, but I could not. I'm not saying there isn't a difference for me, It's just very small.
Tested with the Violectric V200 and HE1000 Stealth's.
Ohh, and I do work in the HiFi business, so I've heard a lot of different gear, but on speaker systems and never been able to A/B instantaneously, like I can now.

Have you tried A/B'ing your DAC's with them volume matched?

Which DAC would you suggest I give a try, to hear a significant difference to the D-S DAC's I already got?

Have I level matched using an ABX box or other means to get it to less than 0.1 db different? No. I have double blind tested a few DAC's over the years, but, not lately.

In the past two years I have heard these D-S DAC's:

* my streamer (Cambridge MX10 (which BTW as a streamer crushes the eternally beta product iFi 'zen')
* LG V-40 (wanky bright)
* Dragon Fly Cobalt (meh)
* Ear Men Tradutto (variable - good at times, weird at others)

One could say I'm driven by reputation/cost - but in 2016 when I bought my Gumby, I faced it off against the Yggy which I could well afford then, and went with the Gumby.as sounding better in my then top notch speaker based system. I have found that the Musician Pegasus is fairly close to my Gumby. The DAVE seemed other worldly - but along with the DSD512, Pass Int-25 and the Rall CA-1a (w/ filter) I heard with the DAVE was so different/great to what I am used too - it's hard to be sure.

Not being in the business anymore, I don't have a large set of DAC's I can comment on - so, as usual demo carefully if possible. I can only comment on what I have heard and that is: R2R >> D-S.

 

[bagwell359]

Which DAC would you suggest I give a try, to hear a significant difference to the D-S DAC's I already got?

There seems to be an increasing amount of R2R DAC's coming out. Hopefully its because there is a good technical reason for it - and not just catching onto the audiophile big thing of the moment.. Probably some of both.

Hopefully you can get access to a few of them and let us know what you think.

 

[Majuto]

There seems to be an increasing amount of R2R DAC's coming out. Hopefully its because there is a good technical reason for it - and not just catching onto the audiophile big thing of the moment.. Probably some of both.

Hopefully you can get access to a few of them and let us know what you think.

If you're interested in DAC's, I can recommend Soundnews's Vitalie Sandu's great in depth reviews of different types of DAC's and comparisons between them. He's a real DAC specialist who loves his Suzy (Susvara) and Trafomatic Primavera tube amp.

 

[SmartCheetah]

And just to complete the circle of confusion: I find that DAC's matter the least in a setup, and I would always spend more on headphones/speakers and amplifiers, than the DAC

I'd agree.

Jumping from EF400+ST-AMP to EF400+Aune S17 Pro was a huge step up. Same was the difference between EF400 solo vs EF400+S17 or even EF400+ST-AMP.

DAC's function is to accurately convert a digital signal into an analog one and do it without distortion and noise. If DACs alter sound much then they're probably not doing their job properly.

However, have to admit that switching between OS and NOS modes of EF400 makes a noticeable difference, same when paired with the ST-Amp, a little less so when paired with the S17 Pro.

 

[bagwell359]

I'd agree.

Jumping from EF400+ST-AMP to EF400+Aune S17 Pro was a huge step up. Same was the difference between EF400 solo vs EF400+S17 or even EF400+ST-AMP.

DAC's function is to accurately convert a digital signal into an analog one and do it without distortion and noise. If DACs alter sound much then they're probably not doing their job properly.

However, have to admit that switching between OS and NOS modes of EF400 makes a noticeable difference, same when paired with the ST-Amp, a little less so when paired with the S17 Pro.

What other amps and DAC's have you used and on what headphone(s)?

 

[SmartCheetah]

What other amps and DAC's have you used and on what headphone(s)?

I listed the pairings in the previous post. Beside from that there was FiiO K7 used as AiO.

Headphones - Arya Stealth, Edition XS, Ananda Nano, Beyer DT150, Aeon Closed X, Final Audio Pandora Hope VI, MSR7b, Shure 840a.

 

[Erick Muller]

I listed the pairings in the previous post. Beside from that there was FiiO K7 used as AiO.

Headphones - Arya Stealth, Edition XS, Ananda Nano, Beyer DT150, Aeon Closed X, Final Audio Pandora Hope VI, MSR7b, Shure 840a.

I used to own a Fiio K7, excellent AiO, the only problem that I had with that unit it's that it made my LCD2Cs almost impossible to listen to. Granted that was before I was using HQPlayer and EQing my HP properly. Gave that to a friend and he's enjoying it a lot.