[dermott]

It seems like there are a lot of DACs that people report as having superior (if not far superior) performance via their balanced/XLR outputs versus their unbalanced/RCA outputs. As someone whose amp only accepts RCA input (Violectric V340) that is interested in getting into a R2R DAC, should I be concerned about not getting the "full experience" since I am limited to using the RCA out? Is this more prevalent in R2R DACs vs D/S? Perhaps I am seeing that because I am looking specifically at R2R DACs? Are there any R2R offerings that do not have this disparity between outputs?

 

[roderickvd]

Really depends on the specific DAC and how they buffer (or don't) the RCA outputs. For Denafrips and clones I think you pretty much throw away half the ladders; the RCA's just take output from the ve+ side. Soekris I believe has opamps doing balanced-unbalanced conversion chores.

 

[dermott]

For Denafrips and clones I think you pretty much throw away half the ladders; the RCA's just take output from the ve+ side. Soekris I believe has opamps doing balanced-unbalanced conversion chores.

Dang! I am not an engineer, so I don't know the implications of that, but it does not sound good. Not sure if that equates to 50% horsepower, but if that is the case, the juice is not worth the squeeze there. I have heard that although not an R2R implementation or D/S (multibit), that the Schiit Bifrost 2 sounds equally good out of the single ended outputs. Is there something in the construction/methodology of a DAC that is a "tell" on if the single ended output has a fighting chance of sounding close to the balanced?

 

[roderickvd]

I also prefer to run at full throttle. But playing devil's advocate, to stay in the hp analogy, you may not need all horsepower to attain flight speed. And indeed a lot of people running on one half of the R2R ladders would attest to it sounding very good.

In the end it's all about implementation. A half-ladder outputting DAC may sound and measure better than a balanced-to-unbalanced converting one.

Given two different designs that were paid equally good engineering attention, a balanced design should give you 3 dB better dynamic range and of the advantages of high CMRR on the interconnect. In practice, with only short cable runs and in an environment with household EMI levels, you may never notice.

 

[dermott]

Good to know what the "technical" limitations/implications are. I would think that a main reason someone would want to move to an R2R DAC would be for the tone/timbre vs an increase in dynamic range. Again, not an engineer, so are those qualities not impacted by the technical shortcomings of unbalanced?

 

[roderickvd]

No, not by nature of being unbalanced.

 

[medon]

Good to know what the "technical" limitations/implications are. I would think that a main reason someone would want to move to an R2R DAC would be for the tone/timbre vs an increase in dynamic range. Again, not an engineer, so are those qualities not impacted by the technical shortcomings of unbalanced?

From my experience with a Denafrips Ares II DAC:
I first ran it via RCA into a Yamaha A-S801.
Then I got a balanced Yamaha integrated, and updated to XLR interconnects.

The difference is there, and of course XLR is better -- so yes, technically you "waste" some of the DAC's potential by running it via RCA.
On the other hand... so what? It still sounds so much better than other DACs, and you have a good reason to upgrade to a balanced Amp in the future...

The basic tonal balance, and what makes the sound signature of a (Denafrips) R2R DAC are there regardless if connected via RCA or XLR.

 

[GoldenSound]

It seems like there are a lot of DACs that people report as having superior (if not far superior) performance via their balanced/XLR outputs versus their unbalanced/RCA outputs. As someone whose amp only accepts RCA input (Violectric V340) that is interested in getting into a R2R DAC, should I be concerned about not getting the "full experience" since I am limited to using the RCA out? Is this more prevalent in R2R DACs vs D/S? Perhaps I am seeing that because I am looking specifically at R2R DACs? Are there any R2R offerings that do not have this disparity between outputs?

There's a few reasons why the single ended and balanced outputs of a DAC will sound different, and it's often misunderstood.

1) Difference in signal level.
This alone means that you'll get a 6dB change in volume when going from balanced to single ended. And if volume is not properly compensated, people often perceive louder sources as 'better' regardless of whether they are or not. It's actually quite difficult to overcome this issue unless you have a very precise and repeatable way of adjusting volume correctly BEFORE playback resumes. (Just adjusting your pot after is not effective). So not a 'real' difference in the sound of the outputs, but rather a psychological effect caused by improper or delayed level matching during comparison.

2) Noise rejection benefits of balanced
Balanced interconnects have the advantage of inherent noise rejection, and so in a noisier environment balanced may provide better performance than single ended but this is nothing to do with the DAC itself

3) Single ended setups in equal scenarios produce more second order harmonics.
A fully balanced & differential system (the two are commonly confused but not the same thing) will not produce the same level of second order harmonics as a single ended one of equal design/quality. As a result, in some instances you may find that the single ended output sounds subjectively slightly 'warmer' or 'denser' in sound compared to balanced.



I should point out though, that there is often the claim that certain products are 'better optimised' for balanced or single ended and therefore the other output doesn't sound as good.
In the vast majority of cases this is simply not true, and in fact the single ended output is just using half of the balanced circuitry. There is no difference in output stage or design otherwise. It's literally the same thing just only one polarity.

SOME products that's not the case. The RME ADI-2 DAC (not Pro) for example where the DAC itself is single ended and then an inverting opamp just creates a second polarity to provide a balanced output, but the DAC itself isn't balanced. Or some Schiit products where the polarities are inverted/summed to produce the single ended output instead. Or a few select products where the single ended and balanced outputs have actually different/separate output stages. (Some newer SMSL DACs for example).
In these cases, there can be a difference in sound.

 

[peterinvan]

I just asked ChatGPT "With headphones, is a balanced source significantly better than single ended?"

Response:

Whether a balanced source is significantly better than a single-ended source when using headphones depends on several factors, including the quality of the equipment, the headphones themselves, and the environment in which you're using them. Let's break down the key considerations:
1. Noise Rejection:Balanced connections can provide better noise rejection due to their inherent design, which involves sending two out-of-phase signals along with a ground. This can help cancel out common-mode noise. In theory, this can lead to a cleaner audio signal and reduced interference, especially over longer cable runs. However, in a typical headphone listening scenario, cable lengths are usually short, so the noise rejection advantage may not be as significant.
2. Improved Power Delivery:Balanced connections can deliver more power to the headphones due to the use of two signal paths (positive and negative phases) instead of one. This can be advantageous for driving high-impedance or power-hungry headphones, providing better control over the headphone drivers and potentially resulting in improved dynamics and transient response. However, for most regular headphones, the power difference might not be perceivable.
3. Sound Quality:Whether balanced or single-ended connections provide better sound quality can be a subjective matter. Some listeners claim to perceive improved clarity, separation, and dynamics with balanced connections, while others might not notice a significant difference. The improvement, if any, might vary depending on the headphones' sensitivity and impedance, the audio source, the quality of the headphone amplifier, and the listener's own preferences.
4. Equipment Quality:The quality of the headphone amplifier and the source device matters significantly. A high-quality single-ended setup can often outperform a poorly designed or low-quality balanced setup. The reverse is also true—a high-quality balanced setup might outperform a low-quality single-ended setup.
5. Availability and Compatibility:Balanced headphone connections are less common in consumer audio equipment compared to single-ended connections. As a result, you might need specialized gear or adapters to take full advantage of a balanced setup. Additionally, not all headphones support balanced connections, so compatibility is a factor to consider.
6. Personal Preference:Ultimately, audio perception is subjective, and personal preference plays a significant role. Some listeners might prefer the tonal balance and characteristics of a single-ended connection, while others might prefer the potential benefits that a balanced connection offers.
In summary, while balanced connections have certain technical advantages, the real-world perceptible improvement might not be drastic in all cases, especially with regular headphones and typical listening environments. If you're considering upgrading your audio setup, it's a good idea to audition both balanced and single-ended connections with your headphones and preferred music before making a decision. Your own preferences, the quality of your equipment, and the headphones you're using will all play a role in determining which connection type is "better" for you.

 

[fgordan321]

Any dac that can play video format?

 

[OnlySoMany]

It's all subjective. Balanced will not make a bad dac sound good, and rca will not make a good dac sound bad. Depends on your ears and preference, hence why so many DACs exist. Otherwise we'd all hear the same things and agree.

I've had both DACs, and it really doesn't make a huge difference unless the dac has a power difference in the output. XLR can also make some amps sound "hot" if they have a higher voltage output (for example Dave has a 6v out via XLR iirc. Putting that connection into an amp that is already a bit forward would not sound good. It's been my personal experience that system matching is key.

Also, start at what comes from the wall, and work your way outward.

Outlet, power cords, source, dac, interconnects, amp, cable, headphones. With potentially a power conditioner in there as well. Despite all the bs you hear on the web, it absolutely makes a difference.

 

[roderickvd]

ChatGPT nailed that one I think.

I would recommend going outside-in: headphones make the biggest difference, then amps, then DACs, then streamers.

I’ve got power filters but honestly they never really made a discernible difference to me. They give peace of mind though not looking to start an argument, just sharing my experiences and like ChatGPT says, for anyone to do as they wish.

 

[skhan007]

.

SOME products that's not the case. The RME ADI-2 DAC (not Pro) for example where the DAC itself is single ended and then an inverting opamp just creates a second polarity to provide a balanced output, but the DAC itself isn't balanced.

Bumping this thread with a follow up question: I was considering purchasing a balanced tube headphone amp (Woo Audio WA22) and was planning to use my RME ADI-2 DAC. If I’m understanding the quoted statement, I’ll basically have the novelty of using balanced XLR interconnects and XLR headphone cables, but the sound produced by the DAC is no different than if I used RCA? Just wanted to understand before I spend a few thousand on the amp I’m considering.

 

[audiobomber]

Reading this thread, one might come away with the impression that balanced connection is always better, by a little or a lot. As some have said here, that is not by any means a given. Comparing balanced and single-ended on a specific piece of gear can involve different circuit configurations, which will impact sound, and can go either way. Also, the cables used to connect each are often different, and certainly the connectors are different, which will change the sound.

According to Rob Watts of Chord Electronics “Single-ended is innately more transparent than balanced as it’s simpler. Secondly, pulse array DACs [as found in the Mojo 2] are single ended, so going balanced would make it sound worse. Conventional DACs are balanced to solve substrate noise, but pulse array is discrete so doesn’t have this problem in the first place.”

John Siau of Benchmark Media says,"Benchmark does not offer voltage-balanced headphone outputs on any of its products. The reason for this is that a voltage-balanced interface serves no useful purpose when driving headphones. The truth is that a conventional single-ended headphone drive is technically superior to a balanced drive. This paper explains why single-ended headphone amplifiers are inherently more transparent than balanced headphone amplifiers."
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-balanced-headphone-outputs-are-better

There is no definitive answer, it depends on what gear you have.

 

[GoldenSound]

Bumping this thread with a follow up question: I was considering purchasing a balanced tube headphone amp (Woo Audio WA22) and was planning to use my RME ADI-2 DAC. If I’m understanding the quoted statement, I’ll basically have the novelty of using balanced XLR interconnects and XLR headphone cables, but the sound produced by the DAC is no different than if I used RCA? Just wanted to understand before I spend a few thousand on the amp I’m considering.

The way in which you connect the amp particularly in situations like a tube amp are going to make a difference to the sound.


I cannot remember how the WA22 handles RCA inputs, but either it'll go through a transformer to convert it to balanced which will have some amount of colouration, or it'll just use one polarity of the signal path which will again influence the resulting distortion profile you get at the end.

In solid state often single ended vs balanced makes much less of a difference but with tube amps if you can you should probably use the balanced inputs if it is a balanced amp