[]eep]

I agree with you about vinyl playback , I never said anything about dynamics and musicality being one in the same , I understand what musicality is some don’t , I’ve heard enough digital front ends that are praised as highly detailed ultimately uninvloving musically to my ears .
Digital playback is what I primarily use now i can say I’m fairly new to digital playback having purchased my very first CD player in 2017 , an EMM Labs I thought was a decent compromise over vinyl it didn’t feel like a icy shower while emotionally unmoving so to speak however I noticed missing details that even today using better digital playback components best rated recordings both streamed and ripped that I clearly remember hearing using my best vinyl.

Today using digital I just have to switch my Denefrips or whatever into my Boulder system to hear what’s missing ,.Peace

I know reviewers who have to put a dollar in the swear-jar every time they use the word 'musicality'.
It's just like the saying "it is what it is" which is saying exactly nothing. Anything can not be anything else by definition of the word 'is'.

I get tempted by some beautiful gear, but I know I need to stop buying $1299 gear that's just not it (like the topping dx9 that looks so yummie) or I'll never get to Venus $3k level. I see a lot of praise for the Weiss dac to. But I know I shouldn't. Cartridges are consumables so that's ok. (look in the vinyl threads).

My compliments on the mature conversation in this thread

 

[Palyodgree]

Other DACs lacking? LOL
Musicality in Denafrips range is just so so. It is just easy flow relaxing sound, musicality suffers as more punch is required to create excitement. And needs more texture that makes music sound natural.

Schiit (referenced before), the closest in the price range BF2 gives such punch, but it is on expense of masking details, so no... I would chose Denafrips.

[EDIT] seeing post from @]eep, yes 100%. More punch in BF2 do not add musicality.

However I would suggest to try Audio GD R-1. This brand is a champion of musicality and a natural sound. Great value, never advertised, only by users.

I remember several of your comments it’s always the same promotion of Audio GD product line , you shilling for Audio GD ?
You had a different experience with Denifrips then others is completely fine but to troll this site with objecting to owners own findings is curious tio say the least ,
Over the past couple years I probably listened to 30 dacs including other components past around within a group i belong to , I wouldn’t think of trolling audio sites telling others they could of made a better choice if only they bought Audio GD ,,.I’ve noticed your criticizing owners of the Holo May dac then when I asked you have you listened to that particular model in your own system , your reply was no ,.You seemed to be angry over the price of the Holo May , what do you care what others spend their own money on ? Wow , who cares .
So I have no idea how anyone can hold an opinion of any component without ever actually listening to it especially in their own system or why you would troll friendly exchanges of opinions,..

 

[sajunky]

.I’ve noticed your criticizing owners of the Holo May dac then when I asked you have you listened to that particular model in your own system , your reply was no ,.

Twisting doesn't help your raving. My answer was that I listened to Spring 2 L2, it was enough for me, I have no intention to hear May.

You seemed to be angry over the price of the Holo May , what do you care what others spend their own money on ?

This is crossing the line playing a fool. You know my opinion on Holo Audio scrambling sound to achieve good measurements and disregarding natural sound. Holo Audio lie about R2R as their ladder is not R2R, they lie about NOS as sound is processed - even vastly overprocessed. Their market target are Delta-Sigma users as their DACs sound more Delta-Sigma than R2R. They seem attracted you, so what are you doing on the R2R DAC Denafrips thread?

It is becoming off-topic, do not expect further response.

 

[Palyodgree]

Twisting doesn't help your raving. My answer was that I listened to Spring 2 L2, it was enough for me, I have no intention to hear May.

This is crossing the line playing a fool. You know my opinion on Holo Audio scrambling sound to achieve good measurements and disregarding natural sound. Holo Audio lie about R2R as their ladder is not R2R, they lie about NOS as sound is processed - even vastly overprocessed. Their market target are Delta-Sigma users as their DACs sound more Delta-Sigma than R2R. They seem attracted you, so what are you doing on the R2R DAC Denafrips thread?

It is becoming off-topic, do not expect further response.

Says the troll ,,,.. I think the most idiotic statement you have made so far is questioning an owner of a Denafrips dac asking why am I’m posting on a Denafrips thread ,,…Hello Hahahaha ,,.wow .

I wish I had a 1/4 of the time you waste trolling threads , id certainly put it to far better use,..

 

[]eep]

I remember several of your comments it’s always the same promotion of Audio GD product line , you shilling for Audio GD ?
You had a different experience with Denifrips then others is completely fine but to troll this site with objecting to owners own findings is curious tio say the least ,
Over the past couple years I probably listened to 30 dacs including other components past around within a group i belong to , I wouldn’t think of trolling audio sites telling others they could of made a better choice if only they bought Audio GD ,,.I’ve noticed your criticizing owners of the Holo May dac then when I asked you have you listened to that particular model in your own system , your reply was no ,.You seemed to be angry over the price of the Holo May , what do you care what others spend their own money on ? Wow , who cares .
So I have no idea how anyone can hold an opinion of any component without ever actually listening to it especially in their own system or why you would troll friendly exchanges of opinions,..

You are entitled to your opinion, just like we all. There is no need to get personal. No need to insult someone.

What you describe, a sort of audio club, is something I've done too for a while. That's how I had a resonating board for the dac modifications I did. And a chance to learn from others to prop up my knowledge in electronics. Things others were educated in (I chose a different direction). That is an advantage but it can also be a huge disadvantage. An education can also mean indoctrination. They tend to go by the rule of thumb they learned without really knowing why. It is pure indoctrination. The doctrine of the 'proper application of science'. Yet it can also spare you the pitfalls of learning by doing (empiricism).

That's the fault in your reasoning. You don't need to experience something to know it's not expedient. You don't need to go and lie in front of an incoming train to know it's not good for you. Unless your goal is making the maximum amount of gore for others to clean up. That's why we tell our children 'dont run with scissors', 'dont put your fingers in the wallsocket', 'don't do drugs', and 'dont get pregnant' ... We don't tell them to 'troll' them. Adolescents can tell at their parents 'you don't tell me what to spend my money on' when they want to buy drugs. Yeah right. Who cares. Let them make their own experiences.

So to get to the point: with education and experience you learn to tell if something will work for you or not. You learn to trust on the vision, wisdom and knowledge of certain persons or manufacturers. Get to know their way of working. And by sharing that information we can learn from each other.

And don't mistake enthousiasm for a brand or person for 'shilling'. I have some problems with Holo Audio too, and I admit I don't want to hear what's wrong with my Denafrips either. It takes the 5 steps to come to terms with that. No brand is holy. Engineering is the art of making compromises.

Lastly I want to get something off my chest.

A story.
Some brands, or people, are more 'unholy' than others. They steal the work of others and pass it off as their own. When I was in that audio club I had a reverence for big brands that were out of my financial reach. Like Mark Levinson. And we were trying and exchanging experiences on Chinese gear. That same Mark Levinson person was thrown out of the company of his own name (why? Idk, but there must have been strong reasons). He started a new company of his own, named Red Rose. It got raving reviews. But I found out all his components of his new line were rebadged Dussun and Aurum Cantus, Chinese brands. He made contracts for marketing but he did not design any of the amplifiers or speakers. But you could buy the exact same Dussun amp at 10% of the price of the Red Rose. So Mr Levinson demanded 10x the price for putting his brand on it. And there were severe design mistakes in the amps. Still it got rave reviews. But the Red Rose brand soon disappeared after this came out. ML exited quietly through the back door.

And now, a good 15 years later. What do you know? A new brand! Rave reviews! And the reviewers on YouTube we all know and love (and trust) are telling us the story of how the legendary EE Mark Levinson has quietly been working on a new brand called 'Daniel Hertz' since 2007. Alledgedly in Italy.
"Mark Levinson's new company, Daniel Hertz, breaks the audio rules again with unique sound processing technology that delivers an experience ..." Blah blah...
If you ask me it looks derivative. It is expensive but not too obvious, no Mark Levinson (the company) prices. All in ones with class D amps and a simple 2-way and a Tannoy clone.

Ok, now lets talk about 'shilling' again. Why is everybody spinning the same PR?
"Who is Daniel Hertz?
Mark Levinson's New Company | Daniel Hertz – Daniel Hertz S.r.l.
Mark Levinson formed Daniel Hertz in 2007 to create new audio technology that brings us closer to the emotion of live music and replaces the marketing-driven business model of the industry, putting honesty, engineering, and the customer first."
Yes, the customer first. First you pay 10x the price so I can buy the reviews...

Wow! The brass cohones! "Honesty" "Customer first" What a chutspa! Probably learned that from his wife (sex and the city actress).
But if I haven't heard it, how can I condemn it? Well, I just told you a little (his) story.

 

[Palyodgree]

You are entitled to your opinion, just like we all. There is no need to get personal. No need to insult someone.

What you describe, a sort of audio club, is something I've done too for a while. That's how I had a resonating board for the dac modifications I did. And a chance to learn from others to prop up my knowledge in electronics. Things others were educated in (I chose a different direction). That is an advantage but it can also be a huge disadvantage. An education can also mean indoctrination. They tend to go by the rule of thumb they learned without really knowing why. It is pure indoctrination. The doctrine of the 'proper application of science'. Yet it can also spare you the pitfalls of learning by doing (empiricism).

That's the fault in your reasoning. You don't need to experience something to know it's not expedient. You don't need to go and lie in front of an incoming train to know it's not good for you. Unless your goal is making the maximum amount of gore for others to clean up. That's why we tell our children 'dont run with scissors', 'dont put your fingers in the wallsocket', 'don't do drugs', and 'dont get pregnant' ... We don't tell them to 'troll' them. Adolescents can tell at their parents 'you don't tell me what to spend my money on' when they want to buy drugs. Yeah right. Who cares. Let them make their own experiences.

So to get to the point: with education and experience you learn to tell if something will work for you or not. You learn to trust on the vision, wisdom and knowledge of certain persons or manufacturers. Get to know their way of working. And by sharing that information we can learn from each other.

And don't mistake enthousiasm for a brand or person for 'shilling'. I have some problems with Holo Audio too, and I admit I don't want to hear what's wrong with my Denafrips either. It takes the 5 steps to come to terms with that. No brand is holy. Engineering is the art of making compromises.

Lastly I want to get something off my chest.

A story.
Some brands, or people, are more 'unholy' than others. They steal the work of others and pass it off as their own. When I was in that audio club I had a reverence for big brands that were out of my financial reach. Like Mark Levinson. And we were trying and exchanging experiences on Chinese gear. That same Mark Levinson person was thrown out of the company of his own name (why? Idk, but there must have been strong reasons). He started a new company of his own, named Red Rose. It got raving reviews. But I found out all his components of his new line were rebadged Dussun and Aurum Cantus, Chinese brands. He made contracts for marketing but he did not design any of the amplifiers or speakers. But you could buy the exact same Dussun amp at 10% of the price of the Red Rose. So Mr Levinson demanded 10x the price for putting his brand on it. And there were severe design mistakes in the amps. Still it got rave reviews. But the Red Rose brand soon disappeared after this came out. ML exited quietly through the back door.

And now, a good 15 years later. What do you know? A new brand! Rave reviews! And the reviewers on YouTube we all know and love (and trust) are telling us the story of how the legendary EE Mark Levinson has quietly been working on a new brand called 'Daniel Hertz' since 2007. Alledgedly in Italy.
"Mark Levinson's new company, Daniel Hertz, breaks the audio rules again with unique sound processing technology that delivers an experience ..." Blah blah...
If you ask me it looks derivative. It is expensive but not too obvious, no Mark Levinson (the company) prices. All in ones with class D amps and a simple 2-way and a Tannoy clone.

Ok, now lets talk about 'shilling' again. Why is everybody spinning the same PR?
"Who is Daniel Hertz?
Mark Levinson's New Company | Daniel Hertz – Daniel Hertz S.r.l.
Mark Levinson formed Daniel Hertz in 2007 to create new audio technology that brings us closer to the emotion of live music and replaces the marketing-driven business model of the industry, putting honesty, engineering, and the customer first."
Yes, the customer first. First you pay 10x the price so I can buy the reviews...

Wow! The brass cohones! "Honesty" "Customer first" What a chutspa! Probably learned that from his wife (sex and the city actress).
But if I haven't heard it, how can I condemn it? Well, I just told you a little (his) story.

Your entitled to hurt feelings also ,…Why are you defending a troll ? , I’ve read enough of his posts to clearly identity this member as a troll ,…, it very curious this self proclaimed technical analysts trolls audio forums , well he has to be careful which audio sites he chooses , , regarding Holo Audio maybe GoldenSound measurements and technical ability is a outrageous lie and fraud however I don’t see any debate started bêtween member GoldenSound so why would that be ?
better still he should join AudiophileStyle there he will find a high level of technical members including manufacturers he can speak with directly though I doubt he ever would . I have sent other trolls with their mean spirited agendas directly to the designers blog of the component they find fault with , they never show up, Instead guys like this must be bored lots of time on their hands like to troll owner threads on various audio sites usually easier to target .

And finally Jeep , why are you posting on this thread ? do you have an opinion of the Venus 2-12 you want to share ?

 

[GoldenSound]

however I don’t see any debate started bêtween member GoldenSound so why would that be

I've had discussions here on this topic several times and usually it just ends up with messages getting removed once the debate goes on too long.
No evidence has ever been provided to substantiate Sajunky's claims regarding 'scrambling' and plenty to the contrary so I'll just leave it at that

 

[Leto Dal]

Imagine arguing against a person on interwebs that a r2r dac that can be opened by any owner is NOT a r2r ladder dac. Sometimes, tribalism, envy and brand bandwagon is just to strong in some people minds.
Its not like a r2r dac design is some magical mambo jambo inside a black-orange anodised box. Any electronics engineer, hell any electronics enthusiast can take this thing apart. R2r Ladder designs are rather simple. Its difficult to execute them well so they messure like May or lets say Rockna Wavelight do.
Unless you can prove that the NOS signal.... from the r2r ladder that is there apparently for no reason in your mind, is being oversampled by the delta sigma chip that you are welcome to find, ignoring you would be the wisest course of action lol

 

[]eep]

Your entitled to hurt feelings also ,…Why are you defending a troll ? , I’ve read enough of his posts to clearly identity this member as a troll ,…, it very curious this self proclaimed technical analysts don’t ever post his opinions , , regarding Holo Audio maybe GoldenSound measurements and technical ability is a outrageous lie and fraud however I don’t see any debate started bêtween member GoldenSound so why would that be ?
better still he should join AudiophileStyle there he will find a high level of technical members including manufacturers he can speak with directly though I doubt he ever would . I have sent other trolls with their mean spirited agendas directly to the designers blog of the component they find fault with , they never show up, Instead guys like this must be bored lots of time on their hands like to troll owner threads on various audio sites usually easier to target .

And finally Jeep , why are you posting on this thread ? do you have an opinion of the Venus 2-12 you want to share ?

I think you are the problematic person here. So you think you are a trollhunter, huh? If the time comes I'll even defend you if you deserve it. But I'm sure you don't care about that. I know for sure that what you call a 'troll' is ill-deserved derogatory lashing out. I actually learned a thing or two from him and he is very helpful when you treat him with respect. As you should anyone.

I see that your grasp of the English language isn't top notch. (Your is not short for you are). Imagine if you are not a native English speaker, like me or sajunkie. I get the idea reading the simple narrative isn't easy for you, let alone reading between the lines. If you had read all of this topic you would know I own an Ares, and I decided to save up far the Venus. But its a stack of money. And I have other priorities too. Imagine... I don't have the money to go and buy any expensive gear. And I'm not a reviewer who get complementary gear for review, or get paid to do so.

Btw. My feelings aren't hurt in the least. But I don't care for the kind of rudeness you bring to this thread.

Also, I respect Goldensound too. I didn't or don't always disagree. Maybe I was wrong and didn't want to hear, maybe we are both right and speak a different language. But I do respect him and his work. I'm not an EE or had to study digital audio. I did another study that is just as, or even more, relevant to audio. It's a very broad field of you want to cover all aspects of audio reproduction. And I have 40 years of experience. I'm not just spouting things I learned in school.

 

[Leto Dal]

Instead of generating paragraphs of flame, why not just spit facts and start proving your point with data. Like proving the signal gets oversampled and the whole arguably remarkable engineering work that went into the design of the r2r ladder is just a marketing "cardboard" and infact the singal is oversampled. Its not like we are talking about nuclear physics here.

 

[]eep]

Imagine arguing against a person on interwebs that a r2r dac that can be opened by any owner is NOT a r2r ladder dac. Sometimes, tribalism, envy and brand bandwagon is just to strong in some people minds.
Its not like a r2r dac design is some magical mambo jambo inside a black-orange anodised box. Any electronics engineer, hell any electronics enthusiast can take this thing apart. R2r Ladder designs are rather simple. Its difficult to execute them well so they messure like May or lets say Rockna Wavelight do.
Unless you can prove that the NOS signal.... from the r2r ladder that is there apparently for no reason in your mind, is being oversampled by the delta sigma chip that you are welcome to find, ignoring you would be the wisest course of action lol

So what are you saying? I can't make any sense of this.

R2R is simple in theory, but NOT in execution. That's where the confusion slips in. Oversampling happens before the resistor array. That's where the trickery happens, things that some people object to. I want real NOS because I found out it causes pre-ringing. Something I found to be very important (siehe website mother of sound).

I'm all for non-oversampling. But as Goldensound pointed out it's not all real NOS what is marketed as NOS. No matter if it sounds good anyway, it is deceptive marketing.

Initially I really wanted the Holo Spring when it came out. But the price was too high for me then. And later I found there are other things I am weary of. Lack of service and price inflating upgrades. Not that it's bad or snakeoil, but why so expensive? I know nothing about the alledged OS. I don't need to know either.

What I do know, if you spend a lot of money on something, you can afford it and you enjoy it, then go do that. Enjoy.

However, if you have to save money to be able to afford it, make sure you study up before you pull out your wallet. And sellers and manufacturers should give true information. Not try to hoodwink the customer.

I find it's hard to impossible to find a shop where I can audition my preselected items. And not spend a fortune. I did have an adviser (shop) I could trust. But he is enjoying his pension now and the shop closed. I'm glad I learned enough now to be able to pick my own choice, often Chinese (and modify it myself if needed), even make my own stuff, and reach a much higher level of reproduction.

Enjoy what you have and try and be nice (and honest) when advising others who are not that far yet.

 

[Palyodgree]

I think you are the problematic person here. So you think you are a trollhunter, huh? If the time comes I'll even defend you if you deserve it. But I'm sure you don't care about that. I know for sure that what you call a 'troll' is ill-deserved derogatory lashing out. I actually learned a thing or two from him and he is very helpful when you treat him with respect. As you should anyone.

I see that your grasp of the English language isn't top notch. (Your is not short for you are). Imagine if you are not a native English speaker, like me or sajunkie. I get the idea reading the simple narrative isn't easy for you, let alone reading between the lines. If you had read all of this topic you would know I own an Ares, and I decided to save up far the Venus. But its a stack of money. And I have other priorities too. Imagine... I don't have the money to go and buy any expensive gear. And I'm not a reviewer who get complementary gear for review, or get paid to do so.

Btw. My feelings aren't hurt in the least. But I don't care for the kind of rudeness you bring to this thread.

Also, I respect Goldensound too. I didn't or don't always disagree. Maybe I was wrong and didn't want to hear, maybe we are both right and speak a different language. But I do respect him and his work. I'm not an EE or had to study digital audio. I did another study that is just as, or even more, relevant to audio. It's a very broad field of you want to cover all aspects of audio reproduction. And I have 40 years of experience. I'm not just spouting things I learned in school.

LOL yes I’m a problem person on this thread , I would suggest you read my friendly response to the person asking a straight forward question of a Venus dac . I certainly wasn’t expecting a troll jump in to try and sour my friendly response to this potential buyer of a Venus however that’s what trolls do and you support this type of behaviour , you need to go for a long walk or something because your not making any sense ….Thank you GoldenSound for adding your experience with that troll ,,…

 

[]eep]

Instead of generating paragraphs of flame, why not just spit facts and start proving your point with data. Like proving the signal gets oversampled and the whole arguably remarkable engineering work that went into the design of the r2r ladder is just a marketing "cardboard" and infact the singal is oversampled. Its not like we are talking about nuclear physics here.

Nuclear physics is easy. Because all physicists that understand the matter KNOW that they don't understand any of it. In audio everyone's an expert because they can understand 1's and 0's.

 

[]eep]

LOL yes I’m a problem person then GoldenSound argrees with me ,….Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh it’s been a long day at work ,…

Do you have a comment about the Venus 2-12 or not ?

For that logic: yes you are the problem because you call someone 'skippy' . And I agree with him, so thats 2:2. You want to trump me with 'my dad is stronger yours' too?

No, let's just ruin this thread and forget about Venus.

 

[GoldenSound]

LOL yes I’m a problem person then GoldenSound argrees with me ,….Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh it’s been a long day at work ,…

Do you have a comment about the Venus 2-12 or not ?

I'm not sure what the above argument is about, but just to be clear @]eep wasn't the person I was referring to in regards to have having had arguments with in the past.

@]eep has always been quite respectful and level headed whenever I've spoken with him