[dermott]

I am new to the forum and have noticed a lot of Gilmore Lite fans. I am looking at getting a dedicated amp for my current headphones, Grado SR-60. Knowing myself, once I get into better headphone ampilification I will want to upgrade from the Grados. I like the sound of the SR-60's but they are physically uncomfortable for my for longer listening sessions. I have tried various Sennheisers and really like the comfort they provide as well as the sound. Back to the amps, I have seen nothing about the Creek OBH-21SE. I was wondering what the opinion was on this amp and how it would stack up to the Gilmore Lite. As for the headphones I realize the Grados are quite different from the Sennheisers, especially when it comes down to impedance. Any thoughts you all could share on these two amps would be appreciated.

 

[HiWire]

I haven't heard either, but Creek's website claims a >70 dB Signal to Noise ratio, which got my attention... in a bad way.

 

[gpalmer]

There have been a lot of comments about the Creek amps over time. I haven't heard one of them, but the general opinion seems to be that they are not particularly good...

 

[antonik]

OBH-21SE is a good amp, at least on par with the others at the same price level. It would work well with Grados, including SR-60. Most bad comments on Creek headphone amps on this forum are related to the oldest one - OBH-11 (not SE!). It is really not that great compared with most modern amps, however the design is over 10 years old. If you have questions about OBH-21SE please ask - I'll try to answer if I can, after all I did design the electronics for it

.

BTW, S/N ratio on OBH-21SE is at least as good as on any other op-amp based headphone amp with gain about 10 and for 1V output it would be at least 90 dB.

Alex

 

[dermott]

OK, cool. The first time I heard about the Creek was in What Hi-Fi? Sound and vision and they rave about this amp. That's why I was a little confused that I was not finding similar praise here. I started to think that maybe the favorable review had somthing to do with advertising money or something ( somtimes it hard to trust a potentially biased publication over the comments of an Average Joe user who has paid for the product with his/her own money).

So back to the amps, I read the long review of the Gilmore Lite and it was all good until the part about the excessive attention given to the mids and the negative impact on the soundstage, in particular when paired with Sennheiser. If I am looking at upgrading the Grados to the Senn 600/650 down the road I don't think I want that extra mid attention and sacrifice the spacious presentation that the Senns would provide (I hear the Senn 600's have their own mid hump that they bring to the table, which would just be exaggerated by the Gilmore). I listen to a lot of jazz/fusion that is mainly real instruments and real air (think Lizz Wright). I want to do what I can to maintain an accurate soundstage and sense of space, particularly on more sparse, intimate recordings. Big question, does the Creek offer a more even-handed presentation across the spectrum? What are the sonic characteristics of the Creek?

Antonik - I notice you have the 650's in your inventory. How do they pair up with your Creek? Any experience with the 600's? Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Jonoh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dermott So back to the amps, I read the long review of the Gilmore Lite and it was all good until the part about the excessive attention given to the mids and the negative impact on the soundstage, in particular when paired with Sennheiser.

This is not necessarily a bad thing; it depends on one's opinion. For me, it is an attractive selling point as I would, and will as I am going to get a Gilmore Lite for my 650/Zu, trade off some of that huge Senn soundstage for more punch in the mids. I mention it only because you said you are currently using Grados and I have to assume you bought them because you liked their house sound. The Senns are more laid back and a more energetic mid would be slightly closer to the Grado presentation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dermott If I am looking at upgrading the Grados to the Senn 600/650 down the road I don't think I want that extra mid attention and sacrifice the spacious presentation that the Senns would provide (I hear the Senn 600's have their own mid hump that they bring to the table, which would just be exaggerated by the Gilmore). I listen to a lot of jazz/fusion that is mainly real instruments and real air (think Lizz Wright). I want to do what I can to maintain an accurate soundstage and sense of space, particularly on more sparse, intimate recordings.

The 600s have a bass hump, not a mid range hump. Have you listened to the 600s yet? IMO, there's a noticeable difference between the 600 and 650. Also, while I have not heard the 580, I understand there is not as much of a difference between it and the 600 while the 580 is considerable less expensive.

Given your music preference, I am wondering why you are using Grados at all. Spaciousness is not their game till you get into their upper end phones. Even then, the Senns have a much larger sense of space.

That said, if you like your Grados and just want a bigger soundstage, you could move up their line. The higher you go, the larger the soundstage yet it will not be a large as the Senns.

I believe you are just trying to step slowly into a top Senns/Amp rig but you should also consider that for the cost of a Gilmore Lite (~$300), you could get a 580 plus perhaps a PIMETA. If you are truly a Senn guy, that combo should be much more interesting and satisfying to you than a Grado off a good $300 amp.

 

[dermott]

Well yeah, that's just it. I have had the SR-60's for about 7-8 years now. I bought them back when I was in college mainly for running between classes with my goofy yellow Sony discman listening to crap like LL Cool J/Snoop Dogg and stuff like that (how embarrassing!) Needless to say, my musical tastes have changed quite a bit and for the better, so now my needs and focus are quite a bit different.

Now that my collection is more stocked with names like Rachael Yamagata, Madeleine Peyroux, Juana Molina, Diana Krall, Annie Lennox, Allison Krauss, I have a different set of needs in the sound I'm looking for ( Snoop Dogg to Allison Krauss....how's that for personal growth?) Most of the stores around me carry the lower end Sennheisers, so it has been a while since I have had a chance to listen to their nicer stuff. It was not a critical listen by any means, but when I did listen to the 600's I did like them. I went through a similiar evolution for my regular hi-fi equipment recently. For my home theater system, I went from a brighter, more forward sounding speaker for my mains over to a much more neutral sounding speaker for two channel listening and find them to be much more to my liking. The imaging and soundstage on these new speakers kill my old mains, so I guess I'm on that kick now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Senns would be a good direction for me to move with this goal in mind, right?

From what I read, the Senn 650's sound like they would be the closest thing to this sound in that they are more even handed and present an uncolored representation of the recording and have an expansive, accurate soundstage. How much of this is given up with the 600's? For me the Senns also felt like a dream on my ears whereas my Grados feel uncomfortable after about an hour of listening. Antonik is probably sleeping right now, so hopefully we can get some feedback from the UK as well when it comes down to amping the Senns with the Creek OBH-21SE. Perhaps the Gilmore Lite is a good balance with the "laid back" sound of the Senns, but I would also like to hear about the Creek sound.

 

[gpalmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dermott From what I read, the Senn 650's sound like they would be the closest thing to this sound in that they are more even handed and present an uncolored representation of the recording and have an expansive, accurate soundstage.

I wouldn't consider the Senns to be uncolored, in particular the laid back nature of the phones you allude to in another part of your post comes from the upper end being a bit MIA... As far as soundstage, no headphone really truly has a soundstage unless you're playing back binaureal recordings. The sound has a sense of depth yes, but it's not soundstage as such.

 

[Jonoh]

I agree with Gpalmer in that headphone soundstage cannot compare to a good speaker setup but it can be achieved in a more limited way.

Going from your SR60 to a 580/600/650 will definitely give you a greater sense of space, depth. Given your descriptions of your taste, especially your move away from brighter to more laid back speakers, I do think you will like the Senns more than the SR60.

 

[Dreamslacker]

I've heard the OBH-21 (and 21SE). They're better than the OBH-11SE (which was terrible anyway). At the same price point, they do sound at least as decent as the other commercial headamps.
You could do better with a DiY'ed amp though.
I only wonder if the OBH-21(SE) come with Alps Blue pots.
Since their brochures did state the OBH-11 family comes with ALPS BLUE pots but open up any of the newer batches and you'll see a Soundwell imitation.

 

[mysticaldodo]

I did consider the Creek (its a bit too expensive, then all of them are

), but didn't like the sound of it with my HD 595. The sound sounded too warm for me although it bettered XCan in some ambient and mid detail (based on a short audition then). Get the headphones first then audition whatever amps

 

[antonik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dermott From what I read, the Senn 650's sound like they would be the closest thing to this sound in that they are more even handed and present an uncolored representation of the recording and have an expansive, accurate soundstage. How much of this is given up with the 600's? For me the Senns also felt like a dream on my ears whereas my Grados feel uncomfortable after about an hour of listening. Antonik is probably sleeping right now, so hopefully we can get some feedback from the UK as well when it comes down to amping the Senns with the Creek OBH-21SE. Perhaps the Gilmore Lite is a good balance with the "laid back" sound of the Senns, but I would also like to hear about the Creek sound.

From my experience OBH-21SE is a good match for the HD650's - however most likely it is not the best at that price. I still prefer a good class A amp with 650's.

Alex

 

[HiWire]

Hey antonik, I didn't mean to disparage your design. The Creek website just raised a false alarm with me.

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by antonik BTW, S/N ratio on OBH-21SE is at least as good as on any other op-amp based headphone amp with gain about 10 and for 1V output it would be at least 90 dB. Alex

Gain of "10" it would be at least >90dB? Maybe so but the fact is that the OBH-21SE has a S/N ratio of >70dB I'm not sure that a gain of "10" would be practical and, if it is, why isn't the OBH-21SE >90dB?

It's easy to juggle the figures around Antonik and change >70dB to >90dB... the fact is the OBH-21SE has a S/N ratio of >70dB being a commercial amplifier it's unlikely the end user will want / know how to alter the gain and, even if they did, they certainly wouldn't want a gain of "10"

Instead of juggling figures it would be more interesting to learn why the OBH-21SE can only acheive >70dB S/N

Your comments appreciated.

All the best.

Mike.

OBH-21 specifications (as featured on Creek's website)

OBH 21
Output power > 10 mW into 30 ohm / 300 ohm loads
Headphone Impedance 30 ohm to 300 ohm
Total Harmonic Distortion < 0.01% at 1 kHz
Signal to noise ratio > 70 dB
Power consumption < 4 VA
Power supply requirement 24V DC 150mA
Preferred Power supply OBH 1
Weight 3Kg
Size 15 x 10 x 66mm

 

[antonik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd Gain of "10" it would be at least >90dB? Maybe so but the fact is that the OBH-21SE has a S/N ratio of >70dB I'm not sure that a gain of "10" would be practical and, if it is, why isn't the OBH-21SE >90dB? It's easy to juggle the figures around Antonik and change >70dB to >90dB... the fact is the OBH-21SE has a S/N ratio of >70dB being a commercial amplifier it's unlikely the end user will want / know how to alter the gain and, even if they did, they certainly wouldn't want a gain of "10" Instead of juggling figures it would be more interesting to learn why the OBH-21SE can only acheive >70dB S/N Your comments appreciated. All the best. Mike.

Mike,

First of all, it is useful to remember, that S/N ratio is a RELATIVE figure and it could only be meaningful if the measurement conditions are specified. ">70 dB" could cover a lot of ground. For instance, if I specify S/N = 90 dB for 1 V output, no filtering and 20Hz-20kHz bandwidth, it would mean something. At the same time, if I would take 100 mV as a reference level, for the same amplifier S/N ratio would be only 70 dB. Same amp, same noise, different figure. It wasn't my idea to put this figure in anyway - it was a management decision. If I would cheat a bit and would take the maximum output level (around 5V RMS for OBH-21SE) as the reference (some manufacturers do exactly that) , for the same amp the S/N would be 104 dB... .

Unfortunately, not all manufacturers are following the same guidelines in the matter of specifications. One obvious example is Sennheiser - they manage to use at least three different ways of expressing the sensitivity of headphones at the same time. Sometimes even for the same model!

.

Re. OBH-21 and 21SE - if I would state the S/N ratio in a correct way - say in reference to 1 V RMS output and 20Hz-20kHz audio bandwidth, no filter, than it would be about 90 dB. Unfortunately I can not check this at present and give you exact figure. However for OBH-11SE the same ">70dB" was stated in the manual and my measurement here shows 96dB re. 1V RMS. Which is still more than 70dB.

You can certainly ask Creek Audio directly to clarify these figures for you, if you wish

.

Alex