[Durza]

Hey all, I bought a little dot 1+ a while back and have found that I barely use it. Maybe I'm a defective audiophile, but the differences between it and my solid state schiit magni 2 are simply minor to my ears. I like the subtle changes it provides, but it is honestly not worth using it over my magni 2 for me. Am I defective? I'm not much of an analytical listener, and I don't always use my flacs. I'm more here because I love to listen to music and I want the best gear to make the music sound great, not the gear that lets me analyse it. I would love some insight from people who have a bit of experience with tubes. I'm looking at the little dot mkii(or maybe the massdrop darkvoice). Will it be more tubey? Also how well does it handle lower impedance headphones? I've heard some mixed answers about how well it will drive sub 100 ohm headphones.
 
From what I have read an otl amp will provide a bit of extra bass for that extra warmth, and rolled off treble. These are both great for me! I think bass is the heart of the music and I'm a tad treble sensative, so I think tubes would be great for me. Long story short, I'm just scared I'm deaf, I hope i'm not and that an otl amp will to better than my hybrid for my needs. Any insight is appreciated!

 

[PurpleAngel]

I like my Darkvoice 336SE.
I've plugged 32-Ohm headphones into it and I think it drives them fine.
What under 100-Ohm headphones do you own or plan on buying?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Hey all, I bought a little dot 1+ a while back and have found that I barely use it. Maybe I'm a defective audiophile, but the differences between it and my solid state schiit magni 2 are simply minor to my ears. I like the subtle changes it provides, but it is honestly not worth using it over my magni 2 for me. Am I defective? I'm not much of an analytical listener, and I don't always use my flacs. I'm more here because I love to listen to music and I want the best gear to make the music sound great, not the gear that lets me analyse it. I would love some insight from people who have a bit of experience with tubes. I'm looking at the little dot mkii(or maybe the massdrop darkvoice). Will it be more tubey? Also how well does it handle lower impedance headphones? I've heard some mixed answers about how well it will drive sub 100 ohm headphones.
 
From what I have read an otl amp will provide a bit of extra bass for that extra warmth, and rolled off treble. These are both great for me! I think bass is the heart of the music and I'm a tad treble sensative, so I think tubes would be great for me. Long story short, I'm just scared I'm deaf, I hope i'm not and that an otl amp will to better than my hybrid for my needs. Any insight is appreciated!

 

Why not just use the Magni2 then if you don't really have any issue with the sound? Instead of trying to EQ the sound using an amplifier (whose job by definition is to just make the input signal strong enough to drive a transducer without introducing noise and distortion audible to the listener, and EQ-ing it using a warm amp is technically distortion) just use an EQ to correct what you don't like. Want it tubey? Get on an EQ plug in or global EQ app, slight boost to 1000hz and 2000hz, then cut everywhere above that slightly (maybe -2dB) but cut more in the freqs where your headphone has peaks in the treble response.

 

Another problem with OTL amps apart from what an amp's job is is that you can't tell for sure if it will do what you want. It's not really due to them being OTL but 1) the tubes (particularly for when #2 isn't a problem, ie, high impedance cans) and/or 2) the high output impedance driving low impedance loads. The latter will EQ the sound, particularly the bass, and it can go the other way. You have to have the impedance graph of your headphone to get an idea of how it will go or at least some confirmation from others who used the same amp and headphones that it goes the way you like.

 

By contrast if you used an EQ then you're in control of how to reshape the sound. You're going to EQ it anyway, might as well use one where you're in control rather than use a component that shouldn't be doing that anyway.

 

[Durza]

Thanks for the replies! I hadn't thought about using an eq, I think I'll try that out again, I guess I forgot because last time i tried an eq it made everything sound terrible, like just poor quality. I'm sure that I just chose the wrong software that time. Any recommendations for a good eq?
 
For my headphones, just look at my profile. Senn hd 598 would probably be the main one that I might like with tubes, but it will probably get upgraded at some point maybe to an hd700. I would also try my alphas on it. I also am for sure going to get some new cans in the next month. I'm looking at the monoprice m1060 and some wood closed back headphones. I've heard planars aren't great on tube amps, is that true? Regardless, I have a few pairs of dynamic cans I will use on the amp.
 
Anyways, I didn't get much of an answer, and I didn't really expect one since I doubt a lot of people have a little dot mk1+ and a mkii. I really just want to know if the difference between the mk1+ and mkii is noticeable. I would almost like to get some frequency response graphs from a tube amp, a solid state, and a hybrid. For example, am I getting a 3db bass boost, or only 1db(arbitrary example numbers), that difference is the difference between significant and just barely noticeable. I'm really having a hard time quantifying the differences. All I have been able to find are people's generalizations where they "warmer" or "rolled off" I know what those mean, but without a reference or saying how much warmer, or how rolled off those words are useless. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer yet, most of what I find is generic and vague.
 
Head-fi, can I please get a definitive answer, a link to resources with measurements and data rather than opinions and generalizations?
I've started 5 threads and gotten a total of 11 replies, 6 of them are from you two saints. Thanks a bunch protege and angel!

 

[buke9]

Thanks for the replies! I hadn't thought about using an eq, I think I'll try that out again, I guess I forgot because last time i tried an eq it made everything sound terrible, like just poor quality. I'm sure that I just chose the wrong software that time. Any recommendations for a good eq?

For my headphones, just look at my profile. Senn hd 598 would probably be the main one that I might like with tubes, but it will probably get upgraded at some point maybe to an hd700. I would also try my alphas on it. I also am for sure going to get some new cans in the next month. I'm looking at the monoprice m1060 and some wood closed back headphones. I've heard planars aren't great on tube amps, is that true? Regardless, I have a few pairs of dynamic cans I will use on the amp.

Anyways, I didn't get much of an answer, and I didn't really expect one since I doubt a lot of people have a little dot mk1+ and a mkii. I really just want to know if the difference between the mk1+ and mkii is noticeable. I would almost like to get some frequency response graphs from a tube amp, a solid state, and a hybrid. For example, am I getting a 3db bass boost, or only 1db(arbitrary example numbers), that difference is the difference between significant and just barely noticeable. I'm really having a hard time quantifying the differences. All I have been able to find are people's generalizations where they "warmer" or "rolled off" I know what those mean, but without a reference or saying how much warmer, or how rolled off those words are useless. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer yet, most of what I find is generic and vague.

Head-fi, can I please get a definitive answer, a link to resources with measurements and data rather than opinions and generalizations?
I've started 5 threads and gotten a total of 11 replies, 6 of them are from you two saints. Thanks a bunch protege and angel!

Planars don't like OTL amps much that is true but a good hybrid or transformer coupled is very good with Planars. If you are sensitive to higher frequencies then you should take the HD 700's off your list as they are a bright headphone even out of a Bottlehead Crack though not as bad as most solid state amps but on the bright side. I don't know a repository of graphs and measurements for amps as the load of the different headphone changes things on them from what I gather not being expert on this though.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Thanks for the replies! I hadn't thought about using an eq, I think I'll try that out again, I guess I forgot because last time i tried an eq it made everything sound terrible, like just poor quality. I'm sure that I just chose the wrong software that time. Any recommendations for a good eq?
 
For my headphones, just look at my profile. Senn hd 598 would probably be the main one that I might like with tubes, but it will probably get upgraded at some point maybe to an hd700. I would also try my alphas on it. I also am for sure going to get some new cans in the next month. I'm looking at the monoprice m1060 and some wood closed back headphones. I've heard planars aren't great on tube amps, is that true? Regardless, I have a few pairs of dynamic cans I will use on the amp.
 
Anyways, I didn't get much of an answer, and I didn't really expect one since I doubt a lot of people have a little dot mk1+ and a mkii. I really just want to know if the difference between the mk1+ and mkii is noticeable. I would almost like to get some frequency response graphs from a tube amp, a solid state, and a hybrid. For example, am I getting a 3db bass boost, or only 1db(arbitrary example numbers), that difference is the difference between significant and just barely noticeable. I'm really having a hard time quantifying the differences. All I have been able to find are people's generalizations where they "warmer" or "rolled off" I know what those mean, but without a reference or saying how much warmer, or how rolled off those words are useless. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer yet, most of what I find is generic and vague.
 
Head-fi, can I please get a definitive answer, a link to resources with measurements and data rather than opinions and generalizations?
I've started 5 threads and gotten a total of 11 replies, 6 of them are from you two saints. Thanks a bunch protege and angel!

 
Even though the HD598's are only 50-Ohm, they should still sound good plugged into the Darkvoice 336SE.

 

[Durza]

Planars don't like OTL amps much that is true but a good hybrid or transformer coupled is very good with Planars. If you are sensitive to higher frequencies then you should take the HD 700's off your list as they are a bright headphone even out of a Bottlehead Crack though not as bad as most solid state amps but on the bright side. I don't know a repository of graphs and measurements for amps as the load of the different headphone changes things on them from what I gather not being expert on this though.

I know that, but say if you take a pretty standard headphone like a hd650 and do frequency response tests on a few different amps, there is no reason that wouldn't work to at least give a nice general picture of what is changing frequency wise.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Thanks for the replies! I hadn't thought about using an eq, I think I'll try that out again, I guess I forgot because last time i tried an eq it made everything sound terrible, like just poor quality. I'm sure that I just chose the wrong software that time. Any recommendations for a good eq?

 

It's not just your app, you need to understand how EQ works as well. My target response curve is always to have 20hz level with 1000hz (if boosting; if cutting, no need to keep it exactly level, since this doesn't risk distortion due to driver behaviour as much), with a gently curved plateau between 40hz and 150hz (to compensate for how noise can interfere with audibility of bass on open headphones), 1000hz to 2000hz level, then gently but progressively rolling off 2000hz to 4000hz and 4000hz to 20000hz. This will vary between headphones, and you can't get the exact same result in having identical tonal balance much less imaging, but they do come close enough.

 

Best apps for that are Neutron Music Player on Android and iOS, which features an up to 10-band Parametric EQ with selectable curve types (peak, high-shelf, low-shelf, bandpass), center frequency, Q-Factor, and gain. For a global Windows EQ app, there's Equalizer APO. I use the 31-band variable - I don't actually use all the bands but at least I can zero in on the frequency that has the peaks. I have my HD330 and Ibasso D-Zero on my work laptop with that and I don't miss my reference system with an HD600 (EQ'd to a similar curve) that much while working.
 
 

 
For my headphones, just look at my profile. Senn hd 598 would probably be the main one that I might like with tubes, but it will probably get upgraded at some point maybe to an hd700.

 
Based on what you've described so far... 
 

Originally Posted by Durza /img/forum/go_quote.gif  
From what I have read an otl amp will provide a bit of extra bass for that extra warmth, and rolled off treble. These are both great for me! I think bass is the heart of the music and I'm a tad treble sensative, so I think tubes would be great for me.

 

...the HD700 is just about the worst choice you can go with. Not even the MkII, which makes Norah Jones sound like she desperately needs to clear her sinus on HD650s, can alter the HD700 for what you want. What you need is an LCD-2 with the non-Fazor drivers, and drive it with something like the Darkvoice DV336se.
 
 

 
Anyways, I didn't get much of an answer, and I didn't really expect one since I doubt a lot of people have a little dot mk1+ and a mkii. I really just want to know if the difference between the mk1+ and mkii is noticeable. 

 

Tried them, and yes they're noticeable - the LD MkII sounds like a thin tin can (though without piercing treble) on the K701 whereas the MkI sounded fine; on the HD600 (and one with considerably worn but otherwise usable pads at that) Norah Jones needed to drink chicken soup with the MkII, but the MkI actually had less noticeable percussion.

 

As for whether it's worth selling the Mk1 lower than when you bought them and adding much more than the MSRP gap, that's hard to answer. What I can tell you is that the stock tubes on the MkII are a little noisy, and I didn't try tube rolling so I can't be certain how much better it can get if you tried other tubes, but for the price of the tubes you might as well start out with the DV336se if you pick a headphone that has a high enough impedance.
 

 
I would almost like to get some frequency response graphs from a tube amp, a solid state, and a hybrid. For example, am I getting a 3db bass boost, or only 1db(arbitrary example numbers), that difference is the difference between significant and just barely noticeable. I'm really having a hard time quantifying the differences. All I have been able to find are people's generalizations where they "warmer" or "rolled off" I know what those mean, but without a reference or saying how much warmer, or how rolled off those words are useless. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer yet, most of what I find is generic and vague.
 
Head-fi, can I please get a definitive answer, a link to resources with measurements and data rather than opinions and generalizations?
I've started 5 threads and gotten a total of 11 replies, 6 of them are from you two saints. Thanks a bunch protege and angel!

 

Unfortunately apart from lab testing amps (ex for THD, current and voltage, noise, etc) there are barely any system-level measurements, ie, amp with headphone measurements.

 

[buke9]

I know that, but say if you take a pretty standard headphone like a hd650 and do frequency response tests on a few different amps, there is no reason that wouldn't work to at least give a nice general picture of what is changing frequency wise.

Can't say as I don't know of any manufacturer that does that.

 

[Durza]

 

 

Tried them, and yes they're noticeable - the LD MkII sounds like a thin tin can (though without piercing treble) on the K701 whereas the MkI sounded fine; on the HD600 (and one with considerably worn but otherwise usable pads at that) Norah Jones needed to drink chicken soup with the MkII, but the MkI actually had less noticeable percussion.

 

Sorry, I've honestly never listened to Norah Jones. Just not my style of music. I'm going to assume that Norah Jones needing some chicken soup is a bad thing. Would that be correct? Maybe be a little more specific and use just a tad less imagery lol.

What you need is an LCD-2 with the non-Fazor drivers, and drive it with something like the Darkvoice DV336se.

I really want some lcd's but they are out of my budget atm. I demoed a pair and they are great! I'm probably going to buy the monoprice m1060s when they come out, I'm hoping they will be my poor man's lcd.

 

It's not just your app, you need to understand how EQ works as well. My target response curve is always to have 20hz level with 1000hz (if boosting; if cutting, no need to keep it exactly level, since this doesn't risk distortion due to driver behaviour as much), with a gently curved plateau between 40hz and 150hz (to compensate for how noise can interfere with audibility of bass on open headphones), 1000hz to 2000hz level, then gently but progressively rolling off 2000hz to 4000hz and 4000hz to 20000hz. This will vary between headphones, 

and you can't get the exact same result in having identical tonal balance much less imaging

, but they do come close enough.

It isn't that i was using the eq wrong last time i tried one, I never even messed with it. As soon as I installed the one I tried and with a flat eq, zero tweaking and whatnot it made my sound sound like it was being taken off of AM radio. It really was the software. Anyways, I'll try equalizer apo and some of your settings.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Sorry, I've honestly never listened to Norah Jones. Just not my style of music. I'm going to assume that Norah Jones needing some chicken soup is a bad thing. Would that be correct? Maybe be a little more specific and use just a tad less imagery lol.

 

An experiment then. Sing anything, that's the normal sound. Now pinch your nostrils and sing the same lines again. That's what it's like when your sinus is blocked and you need to snort spicy chicken soup to clear it.
 

  I really want some lcd's but they are out of my budget atm. I demoed a pair and they are great!

 
If you already know you liked them it's more worthwhile to save up for what you know you like than gambling here and there on several cheaper things that, when you buy them all and then account for losses when selling, could have bought you an LCD-2. It might seem farther out for now but the shorter term appeasement is going to make that take even longer.
 

  It isn't that i was using the eq wrong last time i tried one, I never even messed with it. As soon as I installed the one I tried and with a flat eq, zero tweaking and whatnot it made my sound sound like it was being taken off of AM radio. It really was the software. Anyways, I'll try equalizer apo and some of your settings.

 
Download and install it, then look up the response graph of your headphones and trim wherever it has peaks.

 

[Durza]

Thanks guys! I actually messed with the eq you recommended for a night. I personally didn't like it... It sounded nice and all, but I didn't enjoy it as much as zero eq no matter which cans I used.
 
Just in case anybody cares: I instead opted to buy some new tubes for the 1+. Some people don't really like the stock tubes, so I picked up some GE military 5654 and mullard ef91 tubes for only 25 bucks off of ebay. The mullards arrived today and so did my new onkyo tx-nr656(love it) I just need some decent speakers now. I just got around to rolling the mullards.
 
1. the little dot reference manual (claims to be up to date) says to use jumpers on j1 and j2 sockets, when in reality there are just two j1 jumper sets.
2. I took a little risk and just did it. Fortunately the amp didn't catch on fire and the mullards are at least equal to the stock tubes, if not they are maybe a little better and a bit more tubey I guess. I'll have to do some testing and also let them burn in, but so far they are just fine. I won't be driven by placebo, and since the little dot with stock tubes sounded darn close to the magni 2, I'm going to ab those rather than roll the tubes back and forth since rolling the tubes requires changing jumpers each time.