[nanaholic]

Modern reviewers and headphone manufacturers do tend to focus on the Harman Target curve or something similar as being the definition of neutral and in the current measurement focused reviews headphones that don’t follow the accepted curve are often dismissed or ignored regardless of their actual sound quality and even if they measure well in aspects other than FR response.

What I think some people are not getting is you’re simply talking about modern reviewing standards; which whether people agree with or not is something they have to figure out on their own but reviewers often shape the market and flagships that don’t meet the status quo may not be successful due to it.

Which is exactly the point when one of the posters asked whether the Sony R10 would be consider a good headphone today - and my answer to that would be "no", because as you've pointed out today's "standards" is heavily based on the Harmon Curve being the ideal target and thus the characteristics of the R10 when put against today's definition would make most (majority?) of the reviewers deeming it as a very "quirky headphone" (fast bass roll off, mid bump, not neutral etc), and especially at that price point (converted to the equivalent of 4500USD) you would instantly be treated with the "you can get more neutral/accurate measuring headphones for much less money", "the frequency response and the lack of accuracy at this price point is simply not justified" or "the exotic material doesn't translate into audio performance" comments.

And this goes true for the modern Sony flagship MDR-Z1R as well, which is another headphone which doesn't measure that particularly well, and while the MDR-Z1R has its own quirks it is getting a lot more bad reputation whereas the R10 doesn't/didn't, and the only explanation for that is sound preference is simply subjective in this hobby.

 

[descloud]

It's exploiting the reputation of another product from another company.

I don't know about that reputation. The previous Sony MDR-R10 was just a legacy item I read about very rarely on forums. Sony's current reputation may be a bit different now from previous generations, so I'm not in complete agreement with 'exploiting their reputation' per se. However, it's not uncommon that companies make 'copycats' or 'rip-offs' of successful products by other companies. Take at Samsung for example when the iPhone first started coming out, or look at Xiaomi or Oppo products that are (afaik to this day) still making iPhone rip-offs (whether it be hardware or software) as well for example.

For instance, if someone says in the future "The R10 is terrible", or "The R10 is great", what are they referring to? HE or MDR? If HE, then planar or dynamic?

The R10 (before Hifiman) was always classified as MDR, however it was colloquially referred to as R10. Now, Hifiman has essentially stolen this name to intentionally cause confusion. Hifiman has retroactively inserted themself in every R10 conversation, because as a follow up, we will ask HE-R10 or MDR-10. This is clever but rubs me the wrong way.

Only time will tell how the Sony's MDR-R10 history will be known by many. Hifiman has been mentioning in their recent ads about the previous Sony R10 (correct me if I'm wrong there, at least this thread mentions it). People who were aware of the Sony's R10 existence can correct newcomers about it if word is spreading about Hifiman being the original 'R10' creator. The internet will have Sony's R10 historical showpiece still around like in this forum.

I focus more on the substance rather than the form. It is the act of cheating/copycat itself. Not whether he gets caught/sued. Something like....if the law says it is legal for me to kill other people, would I still kill other people?

No offense, but it seems you are more concerned about the Hifiman's form of presenting their version of the HE-R10 than the substance of how the HE-R10 would sound. I can understand why people would view this as a dirty move by Hifiman, but as I mentioned above, it's a pretty common marketing tactic by companies. Given how the patent for the original MR-R10 appears to have already expired, there doesn't seem to be anything illegal that they did. This marketing ploy will garner both positive and negative reception, so you can back up your frustrations by not purchasing a Hifiman product.

You example about killing is also a terrible one btw. If you wanted to get to legalities, better show international patents and trades that would support your statement there. As mentioned above, companies 'copy' other products/features regularly, so unless the defending party really thinks the competing product is a threat by blatantly copying a patented product, they have to prove it in the appropriate courts. Until proven, it's not really illegal.

In this case, I can guess that Hifiman is exploiting the R-10's established reputation for his financial gain. And you can bet that he will undercut all quality to the cheapest possible. This is in stark contrast to Zach ZMF, where he fully earned and deserved Eikon/Atticus/Verite's reputation himself. You can really tell if a product is made of passion or not.

Only time will tell if their sales plunder or would be successful here. It's a marketing strategy and they took a risk with associating their new release with the "R10's reputation".

Other than that, I don't like how they used the Deva and HE-400i 2020 headband on them. I wish they would've used their HEK or even the Susvara headbands for them. I'm also unlikely to buy this just because of the price tag its asking and the parts they use, but I'd be curious to see reviews of these once it comes into more people's hands.

 

[Mink]

Well it's Hifiman's take on the R10s, so why not call them the HE-R10s? It is not like they are pretending to be the real deal, it are the R10s by Hifiman, made in China, which is clear to everyone, It shouldn't prevent Sony to make a genuine pair of R10s.
True, those comments he made about the drivers are a bit bizar, I agree, but I just don't understand the anger on this page? It's a pair or headphones you don't have to buy out of a whole range of alternative true Hifiman products in all price ranges.

 

[freeza2001]

Well it's Hifiman's take on the R10s, so why not call them the HE-R10s? It is not like they are pretending to be the real deal, it are the R10s by Hifiman, made in China, which is clear to everyone, It shouldn't prevent Sony to make a genuine pair of R10s.
True, those comments he made about the drivers are a bit bizar, I agree, but I just don't understand the anger on this page? It's a pair or headphones you don't have to buy out of a whole range of alternative true Hifiman products in all price ranges.

It is not HiFimans take on the R10. The driver design and tuning is completely different. HIfiman basically released a pair of closedback headphone and name them R10 which copy the cup design from a different company.

Its not a big deal if a unknown company does that for publicity. Or the headphone itself doesn't cost 6000USD.

The argument of you dont have to buy it why is it matter to you is essential the same as if you are upset with your favor sports team lose their game or got demoted from the league, then someone telling you u dont have to watch them. There is something in life called passion. This entire forum is build base on that.

 

[6PANDEMONIUM6]

I don't know about that reputation. The previous Sony MDR-R10 was just a legacy item I read about very rarely on forums. Sony's current reputation may be a bit different now from previous generations, so I'm not in complete agreement with 'exploiting their reputation' per se. However, it's not uncommon that companies make 'copycats' or 'rip-offs' of successful products by other companies. Take at Samsung for example when the iPhone first started coming out, or look at Xiaomi or Oppo products that are (afaik to this day) still making iPhone rip-offs (whether it be hardware or software) as well for example.


Only time will tell how the Sony's MDR-R10 history will be known by many. Hifiman has been mentioning in their recent ads about the previous Sony R10 (correct me if I'm wrong there, at least this thread mentions it). People who were aware of the Sony's R10 existence can correct newcomers about it if word is spreading about Hifiman being the original 'R10' creator. The internet will have Sony's R10 historical showpiece still around like in this forum.


No offense, but it seems you are more concerned about the Hifiman's form of presenting their version of the HE-R10 than the substance of how the HE-R10 would sound. I can understand why people would view this as a dirty move by Hifiman, but as I mentioned above, it's a pretty common marketing tactic by companies. Given how the patent for the original MR-R10 appears to have already expired, there doesn't seem to be anything illegal that they did. This marketing ploy will garner both positive and negative reception, so you can back up your frustrations by not purchasing a Hifiman product.

You example about killing is also a terrible one btw. If you wanted to get to legalities, better show international patents and trades that would support your statement there. As mentioned above, companies 'copy' other products/features regularly, so unless the defending party really thinks the competing product is a threat by blatantly copying a patented product, they have to prove it in the appropriate courts. Until proven, it's not really illegal.


Only time will tell if their sales plunder or would be successful here. It's a marketing strategy and they took a risk with associating their new release with the "R10's reputation".

Other than that, I don't like how they used the Deva and HE-400i 2020 headband on them. I wish they would've used their HEK or even the Susvara headbands for them. I'm also unlikely to buy this just because of the price tag its asking and the parts they use, but I'd be curious to see reviews of these once it comes into more people's hands.

I don't think that people who are new to this hobby, such as yourself, realize how famous and beloved the Sony R10s truly are. They have been talked about for decades. They go for $10,000 on the used-market.

It would be like Chevy coming out with a car called the "Countach." Then having the nerve to say that the Lamborghini Countach sucks.

The audacity.

The R10 is not just another headphone. It is the definitive closed back headphone.

 

[KPzypher]

Mark my words. All this heated discussion will be for naught, as people will still buy these craptastic products in droves when they launch. Once they flood the market with glowing sponsored reviews giving them the 'legendary status,' the stage is set to milk the cow. Once they're satisfied, they move on to the next product. The cycle repeats.

But hey, we're just passing time here right?

 

[WadaHiFi]

I don't know much about running a HiFi company and surely don't have a Ph.D. in Chem, but one thing I do know that this action is not really morally justified and will divide the fan base quite a bit.

As a Chinese, from the bottom of my heart, I really hope there's a HiFi company from China that is well respected and loved within the community and maybe escape that stereotype of copy-cat products. This is just going to ruined reputation of chifi and put it back to the stereotype of copy-cats

 

[Focux]

I don't know much about running a HiFi company and surely don't have a Ph.D. in Chem, but one thing I do know that this action is not really morally justified and will divide the fan base quite a bit.

As a Chinese, from the bottom of my heart, I really hope there's a HiFi company from China that is well respected and loved within the community and maybe escape that stereotype of copy-cat products. This is just going to ruined reputation of chifi and put it back to the stereotype of copy-cats

Would presume that most of HFM’s revenue is domestic, thus disgruntled customers would hardly affect sales since most are outside mainland

moreover, the price point is so out of reach for the masses that criticism regarding aesthetic and model name is literally immaterial

just my two cents

 

[radnor]

This a great tribute to a Sony classic. Now if they live up to the hype it will be great! Folks chill out. I love what hifi man is doing. If you don't like something don’t buy it... fang is a maker... not a complainer. R10 does not hold a candle to today’s Totl gen...I for one look forward to hearing these guys. And by the way find the right dealer and you don’t pay anywhere near retail.

 

[Currawong]

Personally, I don't see the big deal. The R10s are just headphones. They are only considered special because it was 20 years after they were first released before anything comparable came along. As other people have said, many headphones available now are much better. Back when I tried a bass-light pair at a meet, I preferred my LCD-3s, even if the R-10s had a glorious mid-range.

 

[GREQ]

The R10s are just headphones.

A Stradivarius is just a violin.
A Koenigsegg Agera RS is just a car.
The Burj Khalifa is just a building.

I think there's a point here somewhere.

 

[Nankai]

I said I prefer Denon D7000. I don't think ANC cans sound better. Good luck on your Chinese Class GPA.

For Mandarin speakers, here's the full live stream of Fang Bian's presentation:
https://taobaolive.taobao.com/room/index.htm?feedId=274521788743

43:30 - Bian says Sony R10 is not as good as people claims it to be. He prefers Bose NC700, Sony XB900N and Sony WH-1000XM3 over Sony R10.
49:30 - Bian addresses the haters, "I know people out there will accuse us of copying Sony. This product is not paying homage to Sony ('s design). Sony and I are competitors. Homage or not, all we (Hifiman and Sony) should care about is making good product. Even though Sony owns more market share, you (Sony) won't be able to sue me. I researched Sony's patents; they are expired. (Audience applaud in laughter)"

For Mandarin speakers, here's the full live stream of Fang Bian's presentation:
https://taobaolive.taobao.com/room/index.htm?feedId=274521788743

43:30 - Bian says Sony R10 is not as good as people claims it to be. He prefers Bose NC700, Sony XB900N and Sony WH-1000XM3 over Sony R10.
49:30 - Bian addresses the haters, "I know people out there will accuse us of copying Sony. This product is not paying homage to Sony ('s design). Sony and I are competitors. Homage or not, all we (Hifiman and Sony) should care about is making good product. Even though Sony owns more market share, you (Sony) won't be able to sue me. I researched Sony's patents; they are expired. (Audience applaud in laughter)"

For Mandarin speakers, here's the full live stream of Fang Bian's presentation:
https://taobaolive.taobao.com/room/index.htm?feedId=274521788743

43:30 - Bian says Sony R10 is not as good as people claims it to be. He prefers Bose NC700, Sony XB900N and Sony WH-1000XM3 over Sony R10.
49:30 - Bian addresses the haters, "I know people out there will accuse us of copying Sony. This product is not paying homage to Sony ('s design). Sony and I are competitors. Homage or not, all we (Hifiman and Sony) should care about is making good product. Even though Sony owns more market share, you (Sony) won't be able to sue me. I researched Sony's patents; they are expired. (Audience applaud in laughter)"

 

[GREQ]

More pictures of drivers and such....

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?i...15969624173102da058f1f8e647946f6229e6d56aa343

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?i...1596962417324aeb4a50c9861ddb4b54cd98c00f075d2

Planar version - looks like the drivers will have a 'horizontal' orientation, instead of the the traditional 'vertical magnet orientation'

Dynamic version - seems to somewhat copy the Sony R10 baffle design.

Sony MDR-R10 baffle

 

[Mink]

A Stradivarius is just a violin.
A Koenigsegg Agera RS is just a car.
The Burj Khalifa is just a building.

I think there's a point here somewhere.

Yes, that people give these products their value. It is all perception.

 

[Currawong]

A Stradivarius is just a violin.
A Koenigsegg Agera RS is just a car.
The Burj Khalifa is just a building.

I think there's a point here somewhere.

I wouldn't use those items as comparable examples. They are either currently greatest in class (Burj Khalifa) or still great, even if having been superseded. The R10 I'd be more inclined to compare to something like a Ferrari Testarossa -- a great classic in its own way, but very flawed compared to a modern sports car.