Knowledge Zenith (KZ) impressions thread
May 17, 2024 at 3:13 AM Post #64,081 of 64,269
Okay...I just found a Tempotec Sonata HD Pro direct from the Tempotec website for $39.90 and of course the FiiO KA11 is $30 so which would be better for my PR2s?

Or would I still be better off getting something in the budget category that has a 4.4 mm balanced output (like the Moondrop Dawn Pro for example)?

Would a balanced output be so much more worth it for the PR2s or would the 3.5 mm output be enough?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm really trying to make sure I spend what budget I have on the right one.

Both are single-ended only dongles. Tempotec Sonata HD Pro is dead neutral, whereas the KA11 is a warmer dongle with some bass emphasis.

The Sonata HD Pro has volume controllers and a detachable cable, which is not present in the KA11.

The HD Pro is limited to 60 mW at 32 ohms, and it cannot power demanding gear, unlike the KA11, which has 200 mW at 32 ohms. The HD Pro is also larger in size, though it runs cooler during usage. The HD Pro has a larger soundstage, with a hair better micro-detailing and imaging.


As for the question about balanced versus single-ended:
IMHO, if a single-ended is implemented well, it can sound as good as a balanced output. The issue is in a lot of sources with both single-ended and balanced ports in the same device, the manufacturer puts the single-ended in as an afterthought, or deliberately downthrottles it to showcase the 4.4mm port. In theory, balanced ports may provide better power and better crosstalk etc but whether the latter is hearable is another story.

The additional power of a balanced source is definitely useful in low sensitivity gear like the PR2. But 200 mW for the single-ended KA11 is good enough IMO. The KA11 will tame the treble of the PR2 but it may be a bit weaker in technical chops.
 
May 17, 2024 at 3:29 AM Post #64,082 of 64,269
Both are single-ended only dongles. Tempotec Sonata HD Pro is dead neutral, whereas the KA11 is a warmer dongle with some bass emphasis.

The Sonata HD Pro has volume controllers and a detachable cable, which is not present in the KA11.

The HD Pro is limited to 60 mW at 32 ohms, and it cannot power demanding gear, unlike the KA11, which has 200 mW at 32 ohms. The HD Pro is also larger in size, though it runs cooler during usage. The HD Pro has a larger soundstage, with a hair better micro-detailing and imaging.


As for the question about balanced versus single-ended:
IMHO, if a single-ended is implemented well, it can sound as good as a balanced output. The issue is in a lot of sources with both single-ended and balanced ports in the same device, the manufacturer puts the single-ended in as an afterthought, or deliberately downthrottles it to showcase the 4.4mm port. In theory, balanced ports may provide better power and better crosstalk etc but whether the latter is hearable is another story.

The additional power of a balanced source is definitely useful in low sensitivity gear like the PR2. But 200 mW for the single-ended KA11 is good enough IMO. The KA11 will tame the treble of the PR2 but it may be a bit weaker in technical chops.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Seems between the two the KA11 would be a better purchase.
 
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May 17, 2024 at 4:42 AM Post #64,083 of 64,269
I haven't received mine yet (soon) but seems like Venture Electronics ODO is a great choice for a budget dac.
 
May 17, 2024 at 5:34 AM Post #64,085 of 64,269
I’m pretty sure the as24 can sound very neutral depending on your switch setting… in the opposite pricing spectrum I feel that the EDX PRO X are pretty reference tuned…
Thanks.
AS24 is a tad more expensive than what I intend to spend.
Is there a price/quality middle ground BTW? Closer in price to the EDX.

(Modest deep emphasis I'm fine with)
 
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May 17, 2024 at 5:51 AM Post #64,087 of 64,269
If only you could find any real info about it other than it's $5.

Doesn't seem to be any specs listed online that I have found.
check out the AndyAudioVault review from a few weeks ago. he does a thorough comparison with other usb dongles and goes over the technical specs too
 
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May 17, 2024 at 6:03 AM Post #64,088 of 64,269
My general advice would be to stay away from ESS Sabre DAC Amps. Despite their low noise floor (SNR) and impeccable measurements, they are often bright, incredibly resolving but at the expense of sounding artificially clean (or what some would call the opposite of musical/organic/analogue sounding). And coupled with a brighter sounding iem like the PR2 (with fast transients and technical capabilities), it doesn't make for a good synergy. You want a warmer, thicker sounding DAC amp. DAC Amps that incorporate a Cirrus logic chip or AKM may be more beneficial for you.

Yeah...I've been mainly focusing on DAC amps with CS43131 chips.

Haven't really looked at too many with AKM chips...any budget minded ones you can recommend.
In the budget category the CS43131 is your best shot.

AKM doesn't really make ultra low power chips. And saber is well, saber sounding, until you get to the 9038q2m ones.
 
May 17, 2024 at 6:45 AM Post #64,090 of 64,269
The CCA Hydro arrived. First impressions: very superior to the Kiwi Ears Quintet, which I don't like at all, at half the price. Inferior to the FH9, at 1/4,6 of the price. Inferior to the MP145, at roughly the same price. Roughly equivalent in quality to the ARTTI R1, but at three times the price.

They sound very unrefined in general. Not a big fan of them. 1110 seems to be the configuration that sounds most natural. 1111 have some weirdness in the treble that goes beyond the amount of it. 1100 and 1000 are too dark. Without bass boost, they are anemic. Although not as anemic as the Quintet, which only has subbass but nothing above it and bellow the mids. The bass texture has some hint of artificiality that I have never listened before in any other set, much less with dynamic drivers.

This is my first KZ/CCA set. It is much better than the exhausting Quintet, but not much else. Definitely a cheap option. Poor soundstage and separation even compared with the 40€ ARTTI R1, it only surpasses them in treble extension, which is lacking in the ARTTI. Only some very specific sounds appear to come from a different place a little more far away every now and them. The soundstage is appalling compared with the MP145. It is a little box in front of you, not a whole bubble of music surrounding you. Contrary to what some reviewers believe, I don't think that you can feel the amount of drivers or some kind of "high resolution". Which you can do both in the FH9s and in the terribly fatiguing and thin Kiwi Ears Quintet.

Luckily, the Hydro does't seem to cause fatigue or downright exhaustion as the Quintet. If I have to choose, I would prefer the ARTTI R1 over the Hydro. It is way funnier and more engaging, while still sounding colored and not reference at all in the same way as the Hydro.


(After some tip-rolling. I must say that the set is absolutely fantastic. The only issue is how bad the stock tips are).

Also, they smell very bad. This is the first set I get that smells like chemicals and plastic.
 
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May 17, 2024 at 9:01 AM Post #64,091 of 64,269
The CCA Hydro arrived. First impressions: very superior to the Kiwi Ears Quintet, which I don't like at all, at half the price. Inferior to the FH9, at 1/4,6 of the price. Inferior to the MP145, at roughly the same price. Roughly equivalent in quality to the ARTTI R1, but at three times the price.

They sound very unrefined in general. Not a big fan of them. 1110 seems to be the configuration that sounds most natural. 1111 have some weirdness in the treble that goes beyond the amount of it. 1100 and 1000 are too dark. Without bass boost, they are anemic. Although not as anemic as the Quintet, which only has subbass but nothing above it and bellow the mids. The bass texture has some hint of artificiality that I have never listened before in any other set, much less with dynamic drivers.

This is my first KZ/CCA set. It is much better than the exhausting Quintet, but not much else. Definitely a cheap option. Poor soundstage and separation even compared with the 40€ ARTTI R1, it only surpasses them in treble extension, which is lacking in the ARTTI. Only some very specific sounds appear to come from a different place a little more far away every now and them. The soundstage is appalling compared with the MP145. It is a little box in front of you, not a whole bubble of music surrounding you. Contrary to what some reviewers believe, I don't think that you can feel the amount of drivers or some kind of "high resolution". Which you can do both in the FH9s and in the terribly fatiguing and thin Kiwi Ears Quintet.

Luckily, the Hydro does't seem to cause fatigue or downright exhaustion as the Quintet. If I have to choose, I would prefer the ARTTI R1 over the Hydro. It is way funnier and more engaging, while still sounding colored and not reference at all in the same way as the Hydro.


(After some tip-rolling. I must say that the set is absolutely fantastic. The only issue is how bad the stock tips are).

Also, they smell very bad. This is the first set I get that smells like chemicals and plastic.
yeah, nobody actually uses those stock tips, they're terrible. the foams are single-use imo.
 
May 17, 2024 at 9:05 AM Post #64,092 of 64,269
The CCA Hydro arrived. First impressions: very superior to the Kiwi Ears Quintet, which I don't like at all, at half the price. Inferior to the FH9, at 1/4,6 of the price. Inferior to the MP145, at roughly the same price. Roughly equivalent in quality to the ARTTI R1, but at three times the price.

They sound very unrefined in general. Not a big fan of them. 1110 seems to be the configuration that sounds most natural. 1111 have some weirdness in the treble that goes beyond the amount of it. 1100 and 1000 are too dark. Without bass boost, they are anemic. Although not as anemic as the Quintet, which only has subbass but nothing above it and bellow the mids. The bass texture has some hint of artificiality that I have never listened before in any other set, much less with dynamic drivers.

This is my first KZ/CCA set. It is much better than the exhausting Quintet, but not much else. Definitely a cheap option. Poor soundstage and separation even compared with the 40€ ARTTI R1, it only surpasses them in treble extension, which is lacking in the ARTTI. Only some very specific sounds appear to come from a different place a little more far away every now and them. The soundstage is appalling compared with the MP145. It is a little box in front of you, not a whole bubble of music surrounding you. Contrary to what some reviewers believe, I don't think that you can feel the amount of drivers or some kind of "high resolution". Which you can do both in the FH9s and in the terribly fatiguing and thin Kiwi Ears Quintet.

Luckily, the Hydro does't seem to cause fatigue or downright exhaustion as the Quintet. If I have to choose, I would prefer the ARTTI R1 over the Hydro. It is way funnier and more engaging, while still sounding colored and not reference at all in the same way as the Hydro.


(After some tip-rolling. I must say that the set is absolutely fantastic. The only issue is how bad the stock tips are).

Also, they smell very bad. This is the first set I get that smells like chemicals and plastic.
hmmm... KZ should put more tips choices for their hi end product. Otherwise....

most of the time, I use my KZ with Spinfit and Tanchijm tips. I think these 2 synergy well with KZ iems.
 
May 17, 2024 at 9:06 AM Post #64,093 of 64,269
The CCA Hydro arrived. First impressions: very superior to the Kiwi Ears Quintet, which I don't like at all, at half the price. Inferior to the FH9, at 1/4,6 of the price. Inferior to the MP145, at roughly the same price. Roughly equivalent in quality to the ARTTI R1, but at three times the price.

They sound very unrefined in general. Not a big fan of them. 1110 seems to be the configuration that sounds most natural. 1111 have some weirdness in the treble that goes beyond the amount of it. 1100 and 1000 are too dark. Without bass boost, they are anemic. Although not as anemic as the Quintet, which only has subbass but nothing above it and bellow the mids. The bass texture has some hint of artificiality that I have never listened before in any other set, much less with dynamic drivers.

This is my first KZ/CCA set. It is much better than the exhausting Quintet, but not much else. Definitely a cheap option. Poor soundstage and separation even compared with the 40€ ARTTI R1, it only surpasses them in treble extension, which is lacking in the ARTTI. Only some very specific sounds appear to come from a different place a little more far away every now and them. The soundstage is appalling compared with the MP145. It is a little box in front of you, not a whole bubble of music surrounding you. Contrary to what some reviewers believe, I don't think that you can feel the amount of drivers or some kind of "high resolution". Which you can do both in the FH9s and in the terribly fatiguing and thin Kiwi Ears Quintet.

Luckily, the Hydro does't seem to cause fatigue or downright exhaustion as the Quintet. If I have to choose, I would prefer the ARTTI R1 over the Hydro. It is way funnier and more engaging, while still sounding colored and not reference at all in the same way as the Hydro.


(After some tip-rolling. I must say that the set is absolutely fantastic. The only issue is how bad the stock tips are).

Also, they smell very bad. This is the first set I get that smells like chemicals and plastic.
What tips did you settle for?
 
May 17, 2024 at 9:18 AM Post #64,095 of 64,269
My general advice would be to stay away from ESS Sabre DAC Amps. Despite their low noise floor (SNR) and impeccable measurements, they are often bright, incredibly resolving but at the expense of sounding artificially clean (or what some would call the opposite of musical/organic/analogue sounding). And coupled with a brighter sounding iem like the PR2 (with fast transients and technical capabilities), it doesn't make for a good synergy. You want a warmer, thicker sounding DAC amp. DAC Amps that incorporate a Cirrus logic chip or AKM may be more beneficial for you.

tl;dr: I agree with you and have done the same, but I think the amp itself has more effect on the sound than the actual DAC. Ideally the DAC output should be flat, and any sound coloring (for better or for worse) should come from the amplification. In small devices like a dongle there's only so much you can do to step-up USB supplied current into high quality power.

---------------->> old geezer rambling commences <<--------------

n00bs should know that there's a whole lot more to this than first meets the eye. We're talking months years decades long rabbit holes of research, testing, and sampling with one's own ears. I'm not ashamed of being cheap in this hobby, but I will say that one of the reasons I went with the BTR3k over BTR5 was because of the 3's dual AKM chipset, even though it's "only" 24 bits and not 32. For pop and even most classical recordings I can't really tell a difference when using budget IEM between 24 and 32 bit. Still I wouldn't call it warm by any means. At least to my ears, the sound profile is a lot closer to neutral than the first reviews led on to believe but it is indeed a crystalline clean sound as advertised and it's been a great source that's about the same size as a cigarette lighter. IMO neutral is the ideal, but many chase after warm and that's fine. I think iFi are masters at this.

It's a shame that Tri discontinued the TK2 - that thing was a beast for < $300. It uses dual Sabre ESS9038 pros and the bottom end was really punchy and full without being colored. If you spot one used - snatch it up, you won't be disappointed. My only beef with those (including units like the Diablo) is the form factor. That class of amplifier is really constructed to drive full size over-ears; it's massive overkill for IEM and a bit wasted on most KZ products if we're being honest ...

Volume: reasons why I EQ

When used in DAC line-out mode with IEM of 25 ~ 32 ohms and 105 db/mW sensitivity, 80-85 dB output comes at a volume level of ~11 of 32 clicks on my BTR3k, and it's putting out ~ 115 mW at an ear damaging / soul-piercing 124+ dB at the full 32 clicks. Remember, it's not a mini dongle but this is still the small one!

signal-2024-05-17-140939_002.png


The output is not at all linear, either. At 85dB we're talking about less than 0.01 mW, and we're typically judging amps on being acceptable when they're over ~ 60 mW. When reviews talk about IEM and 32 ohm sets being easy to drive, this is what they mean. (you can calculate / play with the figures for different phones here: headphonesty volume 'n power calculator).

Closing in on 90 dB on rock and metal tracks is causing pain in my ears and even 80-85 will result in fatigue after about an hour if I sparkle-up KZ's already notoriously trebly profiles. The problem is that our perception about the quantity and composition of frequencies across the output spectrum can be wildly different at different sound levels for the same headphone. Because of this, my preference is to EQ boost to taste and spend most of my listening time in the 40-70 dB range. Right now I have the GK10s plugged in with a balanced cable at 61 dB and, at least for me, this is plenty loud enough for casual listening and I hear full range on the bottom end without EQ. ZEX Pro? I have to screw with them.

And then I have the PowerDAC 2.1 ... that thing goes to almost 600 mW balanced. I have to be very careful to not hurt my ears if using it with IEM. I tend to use it more for my over ears at my desk. I would describe it as ruthless in it's precision and presentation. For me this was end-game for having a details oriented amplifier of any size, type, or cost. There is some distortion and hissing at the top end of the power range, but you don't notice it after the volume comes up, and it's not detectable at all when using with IEM. With the CRAs plugged in balanced it's like my old Yamaha bookshelf speakers are sandwiched to my head. It's also energetic enough to be tiring - I don't actually use it all that often and have been snooping around tube amps for awhile to use as my main power source as I get older and my tinnitus less tolerant to IEM use.

Would a balanced output be so much more worth it for the PR2s or would the 3.5 mm output be enough?

As basking said, the single-ended KA11 is pumping 200mW at 32ohms - and the PR2 is only 15 ohms. At 200 mW on the KA11 you're still looking at big power numbers there, even single ended. I am tempted to toss one of these in the cart for myself to use with my growing collection of DD sets but I need more gear like I need more holes in my head. The thing I like about FiiO is that all their gear seems to be made to a high standard and is still affordably priced. Looks like you decided on the KA11 - let us know how it works out!
 

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