[pbui44]

What type of sources and/or files will you plan to use with your HD800S?

 

[TyTB]

on the Schiit side... why not the Midgard for the amp - it measures great and has good reviews on sites like ASR - SINAD is only 1 off the Topping A90D. Then you can spend more on the DAC and go with a Bifrost and you can be balanced out of the DAC to the amp... and use the balanced headphone out of the Midgard

Schiit does have a 15 day return policy so you could try it and you would still have an out if you did not like it

And with the amp being only $220 you could always upgrade later if you wanted to try something else but would have a good DAC to pair with anything in the future

So, I don't know if I'm leading myself astray with this, but my thinking is that the Jotunheim 2 has more power over all, which for a pair of harder-to-drive headphones like the HD800s, gives me more headroom for EQ, which is fairly important to me, as I intent to run a fairly strong EQ curve for bass, anywhere between 5-15 db, and for treble. It's also fully balanced, which the midgard is not. They have their "halo" stuff, but it's not a balanced amp, they say as much on their product page. The XLR connections are only to allow for the halo circuitry. All balanced inputs are converted to single-ended. Whether or not Balance actually matters.... I don't know. This is for a PC-driven desktop audio setup.

Personally, I pay almost zero attention when it comes to measurements on amps and DAC these days. Sure, 20 years ago when I got into this hobby there was some legitimately bad stuff out there, but solid-state gear in 2024? A lot of these measurements out there are measuring differences well beyond what any human can actually hear.

Yes, this is my line of thinking as well, that when distortion and noise are like -110 db and -90 db respectively, there's no chance I'm going to hear it. But this is one of those things where the opinions vary wildly depending on who you're talking to. The folks over at ASR disagree strongly, obviously.

What type of sources and/or files will you plan to use with your HD800S?

This is for a PC desktop audio setup, so the sounds will range from, at the good end, .flac files that I've purchased, downloaded, and play through MusicBee and the Peace Equalizer, to youtube and videogame sounds on the low end.

 

[pbui44]

So if you do not mind used, then this used Sennheiser HDVD800 is at a great price:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166708604656

With the XLR-only outs, you can connect a studio subwoofer with XLR-ins and have that subwoofer connect to studio speakers with its XLR-outs, like this one:

https://www.adam-audio.com/en/subwoofers/sub8/

 

[Thomasr]

I've been really happy with my SMSL DO200mk2 DAC and HO200 amp.

 

[megabigeye]

You think about this a lot and you pack a lot of your thoughts into your posts... I'll see if I can keep up.

1) Despite what a lot of audiophiles will tell you, the HD 800 S don't need a ton of power. They need 209mW to reach 120dB, which will blow your eardrums to Kingdom Come in just a few seconds. Normal listening volumes will be just a handful of (fractions of) milliwatts.
2) If you're really planning on EQing the HD 800 S up to +/-15dB, you're probably better off just getting a different headphone. For one thing that much EQ requires tons of extra power from the amp (10x more power for every +10dB); for another thing the headphone itself might not like that much EQ/power and will likely distort/sound lousy.
3) If you "just" want transparent sound and good measurements, you don't need to spend anywhere close to $1000, USD or CAD. Personally, I wouldn't pay more than $200 USD per DAC or amp ($400 total), unless I'm really in need of some feature that I can't get otherwise. Remember, audible transparency is the line at which humans can't hear a difference between input and output. There's no such thing as transparent and "more transparent," just transparent and not transparent. This is to say, you really don't need state of the art specs.
4) How many and what sorts of sources are you planning on connecting? Computer? CD player? Turntable? Streamer?
5) Balanced is completely overrated by audiophiles and totally unnecessary so long as the amp/DAC is moderately competently designed.
6) I'm with you on the Chinese stuff... Their reputation for poor longevity mixed with having to send stuff over seas to be fixed is off putting to me too.
7) I also agree on aesthetics. Really not a fan of the over the top styling of some audiophile equipment.
8) For power amp and speakers, you might also consider powered/active speakers so that matching aesthetics isn't such an issue. It'll also save you some space on your desktop.

I think I'd recommend a JDS Atom 2 stack.
1) Continuous power = 286mW at 300Ω and 143mW at 600Ω.
2) That'll get you to something like 105dB plus 10dB of EQ (which I don't think you should do). 115dB without EQ.
3) State of the art measurements and it'd be only $260 USD.
4) Three total inputs: USB, optical, and 3.5mm auxiliary. I don't know about you, but personally I have no need for more than two sources. Turntable and a streamer.
5) Has balanced connections, but they're only for convenience.
6) Made in the USA and JDS is known for good customer support. I think my only concern may be that they might not exist in 10 or 20 years, but you could say that about any company.
7) Innocuous aesthetics that I could (and do) live with for a long time.

 

[BS5711]

I agree with pretty much all of the previous post, especially the bit about having the wrong headphones if you need to EQ by that 5 to 15 db for bass and treble. I would always feel like I bought the wrong headphones if I needed to adjust the sound that much at both ends. Especially if they are a one headphone long term investment. We are all different of course so if you are happy nobody else’s opinion matters.

More constructively, I agree with the comments about balanced gear, in my mind it is sales gimmickry for normal consumer audio.

Schiit gear might have measurements that are worse than Topping for example but beyond a certain point measurements are also marketing tools. What does it matter if amplifier A measures 25% better than amplifier B when amplifier B is already 50% better than human auditory limitations require.

A simple all in one DAC/amp like a Schiit Asgard for example would likely do anything you ever need so long as the connectivity suits your other requirements.

 

[TyTB]

You think about this a lot and you pack a lot of your thoughts into your posts... I'll see if I can keep up.

1) Despite what a lot of audiophiles will tell you, the HD 800 S don't need a ton of power. They need 209mW to reach 120dB, which will blow your eardrums to Kingdom Come in just a few seconds. Normal listening volumes will be just a handful of (fractions of) milliwatts.
2) If you're really planning on EQing the HD 800 S up to +/-15dB, you're probably better off just getting a different headphone. For one thing that much EQ requires tons of extra power from the amp (10x more power for every +10dB); for another thing the headphone itself might not like that much EQ/power and will likely distort/sound lousy.
3) If you "just" want transparent sound and good measurements, you don't need to spend anywhere close to $1000, USD or CAD. Personally, I wouldn't pay more than $200 USD per DAC or amp ($400 total), unless I'm really in need of some feature that I can't get otherwise. Remember, audible transparency is the line at which humans can't hear a difference between input and output. There's no such thing as transparent and "more transparent," just transparent and not transparent. This is to say, you really don't need state of the art specs.
4) How many and what sorts of sources are you planning on connecting? Computer? CD player? Turntable? Streamer?
5) Balanced is completely overrated by audiophiles and totally unnecessary so long as the amp/DAC is moderately competently designed.
6) I'm with you on the Chinese stuff... Their reputation for poor longevity mixed with having to send stuff over seas to be fixed is off putting to me too.
7) I also agree on aesthetics. Really not a fan of the over the top styling of some audiophile equipment.
8) For power amp and speakers, you might also consider powered/active speakers so that matching aesthetics isn't such an issue. It'll also save you some space on your desktop.

I think I'd recommend a JDS Atom 2 stack.
1) Continuous power = 286mW at 300Ω and 143mW at 600Ω.
2) That'll get you to something like 105dB plus 10dB of EQ (which I don't think you should do). 115dB without EQ.
3) State of the art measurements and it'd be only $260 USD.
4) Three total inputs: USB, optical, and 3.5mm auxiliary. I don't know about you, but personally I have no need for more than two sources. Turntable and a streamer.
5) Has balanced connections, but they're only for convenience.
6) Made in the USA and JDS is known for good customer support. I think my only concern may be that they might not exist in 10 or 20 years, but you could say that about any company.
7) Innocuous aesthetics that I could (and do) live with for a long time.

Thank you for following me along my absolutely nonsensical stumbling journey, and for your detailed reply.

I want to touch on point 2), because you and others are rightfully commenting on how strange it is to EQ 15 dB. I should mention that I won't always be doing this. When listening to classical, for example, I will let the HD800's standard tuning shine, as that's really the type of music they were made for. I'll maybe apply AutoEQ's normalization preset, and maybe boost the trebel by a few dB for the added clarity, and that's it.

In other situations, though, like one or two tracks I have that have very punchy base, yeah, I'll crank the EQ way up because distortion be damned, it just sounds too good with all that bass.

You can think of it as my cheaper way of getting out from having to buy multiple different headphones for different genres of music. I DID test a LOT of different headphones in stores, and I found some that already naturally had around 7-10 dB of more bass and trebel response than the HD800s, like the Meze 109 Pro's. They were very U-shaped, and were very dynamic and fun to listen to, but I preferred the HD800s for their clarity, comfort, build quality, open-ness, etc., and it turned out that with just around 6-8 dB of EQ, i could make them sound just like the Meze 109 Pro's.

In regards to point 4), I would have one source, a Computer. It would feed into my DAC, which would feed into my amp, which would feed into both my headphones and a power amp, which would go to a 2.1 speaker setup with a powered subwoofer.

As for 6), so you agree eh? The problem is, everyone seems to know of this "reputation", but no one can actually point to any specific issues or specific products. It's like no one has heard the actual gunshot, we all just heard people talking about how they heard a gunshot. I can't seem to find any actual evidence to support the notion that SMSL, Singxer, or other Chinese-made products are any less reliable. Even with Topping, who is notorious, it seems like their issues were really only with the 30-line. The E30 and L30, and I can't find any complaints about their higher-level stuff.

Then there's the question of whether Schiit is really any better. I know that RME is, because Germans, but...

For point 8, please correct me if I'm wrong, as I have no idea where I picked up this notion, but I have the notion that powered audio equipment tends to be more consumer-grade, and that all actual high-fidelity audio gear is passive, because of course it would be, that's the whole reason people by amps. I might be totally wrong with this, but I would at least want quality bookshelf speakers. The sub could be more of a powered, consumer-grade product.

I appreciate your recommendation for the JDS stack, but I'm curious how you got that 209 mW calculation for the HD800s. That seems to be MUCH lower than what others have calculated on my behalf, in other threads.

I agree with pretty much all of the previous post, especially the bit about having the wrong headphones if you need to EQ by that 5 to 15 db for bass and treble. I would always feel like I bought the wrong headphones if I needed to adjust the sound that much at both ends. Especially if they are a one headphone long term investment. We are all different of course so if you are happy nobody else’s opinion matters.

More constructively, I agree with the comments about balanced gear, in my mind it is sales gimmickry for normal consumer audio.

Schiit gear might have measurements that are worse than Topping for example but beyond a certain point measurements are also marketing tools. What does it matter if amplifier A measures 25% better than amplifier B when amplifier B is already 50% better than human auditory limitations require.

A simple all in one DAC/amp like a Schiit Asgard for example would likely do anything you ever need so long as the connectivity suits your other requirements.

And thank you for your reply as well! I'd love to hear your thoughts on my reply to Megabigeye's comment, above.

 

[megabigeye]

Thank you for following me along my absolutely nonsensical stumbling journey, and for your detailed reply.

I want to touch on point 2), because you and others are rightfully commenting on how strange it is to EQ 15 dB. I should mention that I won't always be doing this. When listening to classical, for example, I will let the HD800's standard tuning shine, as that's really the type of music they were made for. I'll maybe apply AutoEQ's normalization preset, and maybe boost the trebel by a few dB for the added clarity, and that's it.

In other situations, though, like one or two tracks I have that have very punchy base, yeah, I'll crank the EQ way up because distortion be damned, it just sounds too good with all that bass.

You can think of it as my cheaper way of getting out from having to buy multiple different headphones for different genres of music. I DID test a LOT of different headphones in stores, and I found some that already naturally had around 7-10 dB of more bass and trebel response than the HD800s, like the Meze 109 Pro's. They were very U-shaped, and were very dynamic and fun to listen to, but I preferred the HD800s for their clarity, comfort, build quality, open-ness, etc., and it turned out that with just around 6-8 dB of EQ, i could make them sound just like the Meze 109 Pro's.

If it works for you, it works for you. I can't and won't argue with that. I'm just skeptical that you'll get the results you're hoping for (or maybe I'm skeptical that you'd get results that I'd be hoping for, which are a different thing).
I guess I'd worry that so much EQ would require significantly more power from the amp than it would otherwise, and that the headphones would distort unpleasantly at that level. I'd also bet that you could get closer to your ideal sound with a more judicious application of EQ spread out over the entire frequency spectrum, rather than something so extreme at both ends. But a) I don't know your preferences, and b) I'm really not an expert on EQ.

In regards to point 4), I would have one source, a Computer. It would feed into my DAC, which would feed into my amp, which would feed into both my headphones and a power amp, which would go to a 2.1 speaker setup with a powered subwoofer.

Gotcha. For some reason I thought you said you needed multiple inputs. Maybe I just misread your initial post in this thread.

As for 6), so you agree eh? The problem is, everyone seems to know of this "reputation", but no one can actually point to any specific issues or specific products. It's like no one has heard the actual gunshot, we all just heard people talking about how they heard a gunshot. I can't seem to find any actual evidence to support the notion that SMSL, Singxer, or other Chinese-made products are any less reliable. Even with Topping, who is notorious, it seems like their issues were really only with the 30-line. The E30 and L30, and I can't find any complaints about their higher-level stuff.

You make a good point. The number of first hand negative experiences I've read about have been pretty few... But I'd, personally, rather have something that I know is going to either be reliable or provide an easy (-ier) experience if something does go wrong.

Then there's the question of whether Schiit is really any better. I know that RME is, because Germans, but...

I've never much been interested in Schiit and RME is a bit outside of my budget, so I don't know much about those brands.

For point 8, please correct me if I'm wrong, as I have no idea where I picked up this notion, but I have the notion that powered audio equipment tends to be more consumer-grade, and that all actual high-fidelity audio gear is passive, because of course it would be, that's the whole reason people by amps. I might be totally wrong with this, but I would at least want quality bookshelf speakers. The sub could be more of a powered, consumer-grade product.

I don't have much experience with it, but I don't think you're right here. I don't think professionals would use active monitors if they weren't the best (or at least viable) tools for the job. There are also consumer products like the KEF LS series that get great reviews and measure well. Anyway, treating room acoustics is probably as or more important than how well a speaker reviews or measures.

I appreciate your recommendation for the JDS stack, but I'm curious how you got that 209 mW calculation for the HD800s. That seems to be MUCH lower than what others have calculated on my behalf, in other threads.

Per Sennheiser's website, the HD 800 S's sensitivity is 102dB at 1V (at 1kHz). I used this site to convert that to efficiency (dBSPL at 1mw), which is 96.8dB at 1mW.
I then used some pretty basic math to calculate how much power is needed to reach 120dB (each additional 10dB of volume requires 10x power):
P_T = 10^(T-E)/10
T = target SPL in dB, E = Efficiency of headphone in dB/1mW, and P_T = power in mW needed to reach target SPL
P₁₂₀ = 10^{(120-96.8)/10}
P₁₂₀ = 10^2.3
P₁₂₀ = 208.9mW
This will give you how much power is needed to reach 120dB for transient/dynamic peaks in music. For average SPL you'd obviously need more power, so you could still have dynamic range on top of that, but that is way the f*ck louder than you or anybody should be listening. It's also important to point out that a headphone's efficiency/sensitivity is given at a single frequency (generally 1kHz), and that other frequencies (especially bass on an open-back headphone) could require significantly more power to reach the same levels.
Here's a handy reference for how loud 120dB is.
To give you an idea of how little power is actually needed for headphones, I regularly use my HD 650 (same nominal impedance, 1dB higher efficiency/sensitivity than the HD 800 S) with an Apple Lightning-headphone dongle and generally keep it a couple clicks below top volume. The Apple adapter maxes out at 3.6mW into 300Ω! The HD 650's impedance goes up to almost 500Ω!

I'm more curious how others are calculating how much power is needed. My guess is that it's "intuition based," or simply a "more is better" attitude.