[betula]

I see what you did there

I guess, in this thread we all are one way or another.

 

[Newsee]

I guess, in this thread we all are one way or another.

Yeah, but that happened in the Empyrean thread, if I remember correctly . Here you can be proud to be Elite-ist.

 

[PuPS]

Evening drive...

 

[Newsee]

Hey guys,
So i've had the Elite on my radar as a (big) upgrade to an old Philipps Fidelio X1 which i've had for 10 years, and has been awesome to me in terms of comfort, decent soundstage and overall sound quality/signature.
I managed to find a shop with a demo unit, and initially tried it with :
Phone -> Chord Mojo 2 -> Elite
I listened to my own songs, some pink floyd, heavy metal and softer rock tracks.
While I thought it sounded good, with a wide sounstage, a realistic presentation of instruments, I noticed a couple of things :
- Some highs sounded a bit harsh, like hissy/shimmery. Some cymbals or high pitched synth sounds for example
- The low end did not feel super impactful, I wouldnt say muddy, but maybe not the clearest.

It was a pretty short listen but these 2 points stood out, and I feel like the highs could be a bit fatiguing after a while.

After that we switched to a higher end source (can't remember the name) + burson soloist 3x, and I listened to the demo tracks they had which were more classical music/jazzy tunes.
That setup sounded amazing, super clear presentation, good tight bass, very realistic instruments and voice. Very pleasing to listen to overall, no harshness.

The reason why this bothers me is that I don't currently have an amp and dedicated source at home.
I was thinking to go for the Elite first, as i thought they were easy to drive with anything, and later on upgrade with an amp/source.

Now i am not sure... Anyone has similar observations to make ?

The Elites are just showing you transparently how harsh, hissy/shimmery the Mojo 2 can be

I had similar experience with LCD-3 when I changed source from original Kann to Kann Cube. I felt the HP became harsh.

Now in transportable mode I use Hiby RS8 with the Elites. No harshness.

I would recommend to use R2R based DAC.
And tube amps.

 

[adrianm]

The Elites are just showing you transparently how harsh, hissy/shimmery the Mojo 2 can be

I had similar experience with LCD-3 when I changed source from original Kann to Kann Cube. I felt the HP became harsh.

Now in transportable mode I use Hiby RS8 with the Elites. No harshness.

I would recommend to use R2R based DAC.
And tube amps.

I agree, Chord stuff is pretty damn harsh. This is one of the main reasons I thought the Elite worked best with my old Dave. There's solid state stuff that's fine as well.

Here you can be proud to be Elite-ist.

Nothing wrong anywhere tbh, as long as you don't become a snob.

 

[Kaeru92]

Thanks a lot for these responses.
Since i've not owned any meaninful DAC/AMP before (only a schiit Fulla dongle), i'm not too experienced in how they can affect the sound signature.

Interesting to note that Chord gear is harsh, and that the Elite will still scale well with better gear.

Now i'm wondering if i should first focus on finding a proper source to enjoy with my Philips, and later on upgrade the cans...

Any recommendations on how to pick a source ? I'm not very familiar with all the different technologies.

 

[LCMusicLover]

Thanks a lot for these responses.
Since i've not owned any meaninful DAC/AMP before (only a schiit Fulla dongle), i'm not too experienced in how they can affect the sound signature.

Interesting to note that Chord gear is harsh, and that the Elite will still scale well with better gear.

Now i'm wondering if i should first focus on finding a proper source to enjoy with my Philips, and later on upgrade the cans...

Any recommendations on how to pick a source ? I'm not very familiar with all the different technologies.

First thing is to determine your use case. Will you be sitting at home at a 'listening station'? Listening at work? Portable? Travel?

Were you looking at the Mojo 2 as a potential purchase, or just as a 'convenient' source in the store?

In general, changing your transducers (speakers or headphones) will have by far the most impact on sound quality. Like 85-15 or 90-10. Of course that assumes the source chain is reasonably competent. Meaning that going up the headphone ladder is going to make a lot more difference than going from (say) a cheap DAP to a Hi-Fi desktop system.

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider upgrading your source. Only saying that will have (much) less impact on the sound vs spending the same amount to upgrade your cans. Again, assuming your existing source chain isn't incapable of driving your cans.

So really, two questions:

- what do you have now?
- how do you/will you use your system?

 

[betula]

Thanks a lot for these responses.
Since i've not owned any meaninful DAC/AMP before (only a schiit Fulla dongle), i'm not too experienced in how they can affect the sound signature.

Interesting to note that Chord gear is harsh, and that the Elite will still scale well with better gear.

Now i'm wondering if i should first focus on finding a proper source to enjoy with my Philips, and later on upgrade the cans...

Any recommendations on how to pick a source ? I'm not very familiar with all the different technologies.

The jump from the Fidelio X1 to the Elite is enormous. I owned a Fidelio X2 about 7 years ago and only bought the Elite a year ago. 6 years of gradual upgrades of headphones, amps and DACs taught me a lot in this hobby and gave me plenty of enjoyment. On one hand it is great that you can jump from $100 headphone to a $4000 one, on the other hand there is a lot to learn in-between; mostly finding your own preference by hearing/auditioning gear. Also, to figure out what level of improvements you can hear and how much you are willing to pay for it.

It seems you can afford the Elite, but would struggle to upgrade your DAC/amp at the same time. In this case I would probably look for headphones first around $1000-1500 and get a relatively decent DAC/amp combination for another $1500. This would already be a big jump after your X1 and Fulla. Once you enjoyed this theoretical setup and your wallet recovered, you could go for the Elite and wouldn't have to worry about not getting adequate performance out of it due to your chain. And then again when your wallet recovers you could look into other amps/DACs, perhaps experimenting with R2R or tube amps.

You miss a lot if you don't try many gears. Finding what you really like, is a puzzle. Each gear you audition is a piece in the puzzle. If you only take a few pieces, the picture will never be full, you can only guess what is on it.

I know, auditioning is not easy for many people, but there is a great second-hand market and if you are a little smart, you can buy and sell with no or minimal loss.
If you still want to jump to the Elite from the Fidelio X1, then I would suggest to get at least something like the Fiio K9 Pro or HiFiMan EF400 (although I haven't heard either of these). You could run the Elite out of something like that until you and your wallet are ready to upgrade again.

Just my 2 cents. Others will suggest other things but the decision of course is ultimately yours.

 

[Kaeru92]

First thing is to determine your use case. Will you be sitting at home at a 'listening station'? Listening at work? Portable? Travel?

Were you looking at the Mojo 2 as a potential purchase, or just as a 'convenient' source in the store?

In general, changing your transducers (speakers or headphones) will have by far the most impact on sound quality. Like 85-15 or 90-10. Of course that assumes the source chain is reasonably competent. Meaning that going up the headphone ladder is going to make a lot more difference than going from (say) a cheap DAP to a Hi-Fi desktop system.

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider upgrading your source. Only saying that will have (much) less impact on the sound vs spending the same amount to upgrade your cans. Again, assuming your existing source chain isn't incapable of driving your cans.

So really, two questions:

- what do you have now?
- how do you/will you use your system?

- For home use I only have the Fidelio X1. The fulla doesnt even work anymore with my new PC, so my source is purely my PC sound card.
- I plan to build a system for home use only
- I only used the Mojo 2 in the store as it was available as a source to use, and i could plug in my phone to it.

Both of your answers make sense, and I like the idea of upgrading things slower. At first I was thinking of going that route with headphones in the ~1k USD range + source...
But the elite looked like such a good match in terms of sound sig, looks and comfort that i had to try it and now i'm tempted

Anyway I realize it's silly to expect to get full value from the Elite by driving them out of my computer.

I will likely go back to my original idea and try to demo headphones in the 1k range, so I'll feel better about upgrading my source at the same time.

Any recommendations in that price range for cans with a similar comfort level as the elite ?

The Meze 109 pro is a bit cheaper than that, but what's your thoughts on it as an upgrade from the X1 ?

 

[Newsee]

- For home use I only have the Fidelio X1. The fulla doesnt even work anymore with my new PC, so my source is purely my PC sound card.
- I plan to build a system for home use only
- I only used the Mojo 2 in the store as it was available as a source to use, and i could plug in my phone to it.

Both of your answers make sense, and I like the idea of upgrading things slower. At first I was thinking of going that route with headphones in the ~1k USD range + source...
But the elite looked like such a good match in terms of sound sig, looks and comfort that i had to try it and now i'm tempted

Anyway I realize it's silly to expect to get full value from the Elite by driving them out of my computer.

I will likely go back to my original idea and try to demo headphones in the 1k range, so I'll feel better about upgrading my source at the same time.

Any recommendations in that price range for cans with a similar comfort level as the elite ?

The Meze 109 pro is a bit cheaper than that, but what's your thoughts on it as an upgrade from the X1 ?

I would go for the Elites directly. That can save a lot of money. (At least for the less smart ones, like me, who is not selling). You can later upgrade your sources as funds let it. Maybe as low as a lootoo s2 dongle, or a fiio btr5 in usb dac mode.

 

[Pashmeister]

- For home use I only have the Fidelio X1. The fulla doesnt even work anymore with my new PC, so my source is purely my PC sound card.
- I plan to build a system for home use only
- I only used the Mojo 2 in the store as it was available as a source to use, and i could plug in my phone to it.

Both of your answers make sense, and I like the idea of upgrading things slower. At first I was thinking of going that route with headphones in the ~1k USD range + source...
But the elite looked like such a good match in terms of sound sig, looks and comfort that i had to try it and now i'm tempted

Anyway I realize it's silly to expect to get full value from the Elite by driving them out of my computer.

I will likely go back to my original idea and try to demo headphones in the 1k range, so I'll feel better about upgrading my source at the same time.

Any recommendations in that price range for cans with a similar comfort level as the elite ?

The Meze 109 pro is a bit cheaper than that, but what's your thoughts on it as an upgrade from the X1 ?

The good thing with the Elites, you don’t need to spend a lot to get fantastic sound out of them. Most (if not all) other TOTL planars need beefier sources that could cost as much as the headphones

 

[betula]

I would go for the Elites directly. That can save a lot of money. (At least for the less smart ones, like me, who is not selling). You can later upgrade your sources as funds let it. Maybe as low as a lootoo s2 dongle, or a fiio btr5 in usb dac mode.

If @Kaeru92 goes down that route, perhaps at least a Questyle M15...

 

[ckhirnigs113]

I see the pros and cons of both approaches, but I’ve personally tried to maximize my spending on the headphones and then slowly make improvements in the source chain (amp, DAC, streamer, cables) as finances allow.

This approach also assumes you have a decent setup that at the very least adequately powers your headphones. In today’s market, you can get some surprisingly nice stuff for a couple hundred dollars that will be plenty to start out with (see Schiit’s product line).

My only concern is that it might be hard to appreciate just how good something like the Elite is if you skip the whole journey of working your way up to it. Trying out lots of different headphones and source chains really helps you dial in what you like and what you don’t like. It also gives you some context to understand other people’s impressions of different equipment. Having a few common points of reference goes a long way towards the goal of learning from other's experiences.

 

[LCMusicLover]

... My only concern is that it might be hard to appreciate just how good something like the Elite is if you skip the whole journey of working your way up to it. Trying out lots of different headphones and source chains really helps you dial in what you like and what you don’t like. It also gives you some context to understand other people’s impressions of different equipment. Having a few common points of reference goes a long way towards the goal of learning from other's experiences.

Agree with all of this. Of course, this approach requires some discipline. Otherwise, you could get to 'there' and be ready to purchase some really special headphones, but be sitting on 6 mid-fi sets which, taken together, cost more than the TOTL you want

...The Meze 109 pro is a bit cheaper than that, but what's your thoughts on it as an upgrade from the X1 ?

I can't say anything about either of those cans -- never heard either of them. But I suspect @betula is correct when he says the gap between your X1 and Elite will be enormous.

Thinking about this some more, I come up with two things:

- Buying an Elite to run with your existing system is probably a bad idea. Frankly, I suspect you'd end up thinking I paid $4000 for these headphones and, while they're better, $4k???
- A desktop all-in-one or DAC/Amp stack could cost less than $300 and, compared to direct out of your PC, would significantly upgrade the sound quality. Many options out there: Schiit Magni/Modi, JDS Atom stack, the MassDrop O2/ODAC combo (drop finished I think), iFi Zen DAC ...

You might also consider something like the HipDac 2 -- under $200, has enough power for the Elites, can connect to your PC or your phone. Portable, so you could use it with your phone and cans (say around the house while doing chores like I do w/ my FiiO M15). Point being that, if you buy some 'entry-level' DAC/amp stack or combo, you'll inevitably feel the urge to upgrade down the line. But with the HipDac, you could upgrade to a desktop system, but hang onto the HipDac as a portable source which is 'good enough' for that use case.

A similar idea would be to buy (say) a FiiO M11S ($399 @ Amazon right now) or Hiby R5 ($450) as a 'desktop alternative' USB DAC/amp now, and 'all-in-one' portable device later (leaving the phone out of the equation). Again, such a device would be a significant upgrade to your PCs headphone output.

I believe that almost any 'entry level' DAC/amp pair or DAC-amp all-in-one will help you get to Wow! This sounds great! with the Elites, vs going Peggy Lee ... Is that all there is? as you listen to your beautiful new headphones driven by an inadequate source chain.

Anyway, GLTY!

 

[Kaeru92]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Forgot to mention I suppose, but im happy with my current portable "setup", which is the Sennheiser momentum 2 (bluetooth and ANC version). That will suit me until the headphones die, and I don't really want to carry a portable dac/amp with my phone when I move around.

The goal right now is to improve the desktop setup only. I have done some more thinking and I think what I'll probably do is :
- find a dac/amp pair or combo first, something relatively versatile
- search for used gear (might be difficult, i now live in Hong Kong) or then something new for a budget of about 1k$
- once that's done, see if I can find headphones in the used market with an MSRP around 1k as a first step. -> the hifiman Arya, LCD X, focal clear come to mind. Maybe the ether 2, or some other headphones I'm forgetting, my preference is to get a planar.

The thinking is I'll get an immediate boost of performance, and if I'm not too happy with the phones i won't feel bad about selling them back and trying again with another pair. I hate selling stuff I buy new !

Once I've had enough of this, i know the Elite will come calling, and I will have a decent home setup to welcome them, and I might appreciate the step up even more.

I know this is the Elite thread but thanks for all your suggestions !