[Hypops]

IMHO, I love to see the lenses of scientific method being pointed at our hobby, but I don’t like how it is being used. People seem to forget that we are not trying to transfer signal from point A to point B with minimal loss (ala low noise and distortion) when it comes to personal audio. It is the auditory illusion that is precisely the point of personal audio. Not signal purity. Not anymore given the performance of modern audio gears.

Folks with scientific inclination and engineering know how should point those capabilities toward forming theories about how to control that auditory illusion via mechanical and electrical means. But no, such a concept is too slippery for numerical minds, so they rather stick to signal purity and sweep the point of personal audio under the rug, pretending that signal purity is the goal of personal audio. But no, “it is the subjective crowd is ignorant and arrogant”, never the insufferable audio scientist wannabe themselves.

I admire the approach of Final Audio though I rarely agree with their IEM. Whatever they set out to control, they always managed to hit. Remember how they throw everything out the window to make the biggest IEM soundstage with A series? Relationship between stage and dynamic with B series?

Again, I totally agree. I'd actually go so far as to say that whatever I hear (or whatever anyone else hears) is all that matters. I don't care what the cause is (acoustic, psychoacoustic, auditory hallucination, alien implanted chips, etc.). If I hear it, it is indeed what I hear. And if someone else hears something else, who am I to deny their experience? So, yeah, totally with you.

At the same time, I'm a nerd and love the idea that there might be some tangible "code" underlying our auditory experience. I get that it's a total fantasy, but whatevs. As long as I get to keep listening to music on awesome gear, I'm cool with having it both ways.

 

[Uprox]

When I'm getting pleasure with listening to music often I'm trying to understand, what is a cause, why so and what would be better. That's a critical listening I guess. In other time I just get pleasure from music and don't care about technicalities. These are two types of listening. Some styles of music needs more details, more resolution and so on - then I need better DAP and better IEM, otherwise I get porridge of sounds instead clarity and clearness, without pleasure. In other cases I care about natural timbre (jazz, acoustical and classical music) or about drive and fun (classical rock). In these cases technicalities are not important.
One more thoughts. Each have own ears and own preferences in music and tonality, so needs or not needs mid-fi equipment.

 

[Ferdinando1968]

IMHO, I love to see the lenses of scientific method being pointed at our hobby, but I don’t like how it is being used. People seem to forget that we are not trying to transfer signal from point A to point B with minimal loss (ala low noise and distortion) when it comes to personal audio. It is the auditory illusion that is precisely the point of personal audio. Not signal purity. Not anymore given the performance of modern audio gears.

Folks with scientific inclination and engineering know how should point those capabilities toward forming theories about how to control that auditory illusion via mechanical and electrical means. But no, such a concept is too slippery for numerical minds, so they rather stick to signal purity and sweep the point of personal audio under the rug, pretending that signal purity is the goal of personal audio. But no, “it is the subjective crowd is ignorant and arrogant”, never the insufferable audio scientist wannabe themselves.

I admire the approach of Final Audio though I rarely agree with their IEM. Whatever they set out to control, they always managed to hit. Remember how they throw everything out the window to make the biggest IEM soundstage with A series? Relationship between stage and dynamic with B series?

I tend to have an engineering mentality, and I am convinced that our senses cannot perceive what is not apparent from the measurements, as long as the measurement can be carried out and we know what to measure.

However, I fear that in this specific field it is practically impossible to carry out measurements capable of providing an all-round overall judgement, especially on transducers.
Too many variables, and above all too many variables of human origin.

Personally, I associate audio transducers (IEMs, headphones, speakers, etc.) with the world of cooking.

For example: does using excellent ingredients for cooking guarantee the success of a good dish?
NO. The art of the chef is also necessary.

Is it possible to obtain a good dish (that some or many like) with poor quality ingredients?
YES, if the cook has a good art.

A good dish, made with good ingredients and good art, that you have always liked, will you always like?
NO, that's not true. Every day the same soup is boring.

In contexts that deal with human sensoriality,
does it make sense to rationalize everything and seek 'perfection' with measurements and with the quality of the components?

It can certainly help, but ultimately, I'm afraid not.

 

[MudEnjoyer]

IMHO, I love to see the lenses of scientific method being pointed at our hobby, but I don’t like how it is being used. People seem to forget that we are not trying to transfer signal from point A to point B with minimal loss (ala low noise and distortion) when it comes to personal audio. It is the auditory illusion that is precisely the point of personal audio. Not signal purity. Not anymore given the performance of modern audio gears.

Folks with scientific inclination and engineering know how should point those capabilities toward forming theories about how to control that auditory illusion via mechanical and electrical means. But no, such a concept is too slippery for numerical minds, so they rather stick to signal purity and sweep the point of personal audio under the rug, pretending that signal purity is the goal of personal audio. But no, “it is the subjective crowd is ignorant and arrogant”, never the insufferable audio scientist wannabe themselves.

Being sick, or having different cortisol levels thoughout the day can massively affect your tolerance for treble. Even the Harman study (a good example of a simplistic exercise with confirmation and selection bias) shows that you can infer someone's testosterone levels (which also vary through the day) depending on how much they like bass.

I am myself in the subjectivist camp, specifically in what I like to call the rational subjectivist side. Not because I feel my emotions and what my conscience dictates is all that matters, but because due to my work on the formal verification field I have to constantly deal with the limits of human reasoning and complexity.

Thankfully, because I don't review nor make nor sell stuff and only seek my own personal enjoyment, I don't have to worry about any of this objectivist larp (not that audio is a hobby worth wasting many brain hz anyway) and stuff is either good or bad independently of how it graphs to me despite still finding them to be a very useful tool.

But for those wanting to larp as scientists, it is important to understand that any formal system or model will have inherent limitations when it comes to capturing and predicting complex behaviors. No exceptions. I don't care how state of the art or advanced you think your individualized HRTF and frequency response in the eardrum is all that matters model is. At the end of the day, when facing reality, it will end up being simplistic, flawed and limited by technological feasibility.

 

[zootx]

What is a good mid-fi IEM (for convenience, lets say below 400 USD) that you consider to have a relaxed presentation?
Relaxed presentation = no forward upper-mids or treble. (My ears are sensitive to upper mid-range forwardness like the Variations or EE Odin. Treble should not be peaky as it needs to work with a variety of genres and production qualities). I need the IEMs for the office, where I cannot install an EQ on the system.

I thought going for the Moondrop x Crinacle Dusk2, since their DSP cable can be used to EQ and they sound quite good for the price. But it might be better to use an IEM that is relaxed out of the box.

 

[maegnificant]

What is a good mid-fi IEM (for convenience, lets say below 400 USD) that you consider to have a relaxed presentation?
Relaxed presentation = no forward upper-mids or treble. (My ears are sensitive to upper mid-range forwardness like the Variations or EE Odin. Treble should not be peaky as it needs to work with a variety of genres and production qualities). I need the IEMs for the office, where I cannot install an EQ on the system.

I thought going for the Moondrop x Crinacle Dusk2, since their DSP cable can be used to EQ and they sound quite good for the price. But it might be better to use an IEM that is relaxed out of the box.

The DSP cable and app are a mess. I do not recommend using them, rather use wavelet and download the EQ txt files.

 

[o0genesis0o]

but because due to my work on the formal verification field I have to constantly deal with the limits of human reasoning and complexity.

Nothing to add but: “man, many headfiers have cool jobs”

 

[o0genesis0o]

What is a good mid-fi IEM (for convenience, lets say below 400 USD) that you consider to have a relaxed presentation?
Relaxed presentation = no forward upper-mids or treble. (My ears are sensitive to upper mid-range forwardness like the Variations or EE Odin. Treble should not be peaky as it needs to work with a variety of genres and production qualities). I need the IEMs for the office, where I cannot install an EQ on the system.

I thought going for the Moondrop x Crinacle Dusk2, since their DSP cable can be used to EQ and they sound quite good for the price. But it might be better to use an IEM that is relaxed out of the box.

Some IEMs I find cozy (that I have tested):

• Yanyin Canon 2
• 7th acoustics supernova (maybe above your budget)
• AFUL Magic One

There is also the ISN Neo5. I personally don’t like it but many do. It’s bassy and warm and “analogue”

 

[zootx]

The DSP cable and app are a mess. I do not recommend using them, rather use wavelet and download the EQ txt files.

I still want to use my work PC for listening (the office Wi-Fi is not reliable and I need to use ethernet).

Some IEMs I find cozy (that I have tested):

• Yanyin Canon 2
• 7th acoustics supernova (maybe above your budget)
• AFUL Magic One

There is also the ISN Neo5. I personally don’t like it but many do. It’s bassy and warm and “analogue”

Thanks for the recommendations. I read your review of the AFUL MagiCOne recently (great review!) and its definitely on my list. Need to check out the other ones you mentioned.

 

[BS5711]

What is a good mid-fi IEM (for convenience, lets say below 400 USD) that you consider to have a relaxed presentation?
Relaxed presentation = no forward upper-mids or treble. (My ears are sensitive to upper mid-range forwardness like the Variations or EE Odin. Treble should not be peaky as it needs to work with a variety of genres and production qualities). I need the IEMs for the office, where I cannot install an EQ on the system.

I thought going for the Moondrop x Crinacle Dusk2, since their DSP cable can be used to EQ and they sound quite good for the price. But it might be better to use an IEM that is relaxed out of the box.

Penon Fan 2 perhaps ?

I hated them I believe for the exact reasons you are seeking as best I understand, I don’t bother with graphs.

To my ear they lacked energy in the upper ranges of female vocals which made them sound lacking life in that region but that might be what you are after. Many people like them a lot. What to me is a flaw might be great for you.

Anyone else have an opinion on the Fan 2 for non forward upper mids and relaxed treble ?

 

[zootx]

Penon Fan 2 perhaps ?

I hated them I believe for the exact reasons you are seeking as best I understand, I don’t bother with graphs.

To my ear they lacked energy in the upper ranges of female vocals which made them sound lacking life in that region but that might be what you are after. Many people like them a lot. What to me is a flaw might be great for you.

Anyone else have an opinion on the Fan 2 for non forward upper mids and relaxed treble ?

From the Graphs Fan 2 seems pretty much what I am looking for - until the steep treble drop off above 10k. I think I would need to hear this with my own ears to evaluate it.

 

[Uprox]

What is a good mid-fi IEM (for convenience, lets say below 400 USD) that you consider to have a relaxed presentation?
Relaxed presentation = no forward upper-mids or treble. (My ears are sensitive to upper mid-range forwardness like the Variations or EE Odin. Treble should not be peaky as it needs to work with a variety of genres and production qualities). I need the IEMs for the office, where I cannot install an EQ on the system.

I thought going for the Moondrop x Crinacle Dusk2, since their DSP cable can be used to EQ and they sound quite good for the price. But it might be better to use an IEM that is relaxed out of the box.

With darker sound:
Sound Rhyme SR7 (during sale)
Shozy B2
More neutral:
Sound Rhyme SR5
Brighter neutral:
Juziar 41T
UPD
Using IEMs of this level without a DAC is a waste of money

 

[BS5711]

From the Graphs Fan 2 seems pretty much what I am looking for - until the steep treble drop off above 10k. I think I would need to hear this with my own ears to evaluate it.

I am 56 years young and hear to about 14-15khz. To me the treble was sensibly relaxed not cut off like the graph indicates. Like I said I don’t pay much attention to graphs but I do recall that aspect now you mention it.

It wasn’t dramatically lacking treble to my ears and I tend to like somewhat elevated treble. I have the S12 Pro, IE600, Dan Clark Aeon Noire among a few others that are somewhat bright and they are fine for me.

Even after those the Fan 2 didn’t seem like the top end dropped off a cliff. I just couldn’t deal with the lack of upper midrange energy but it sounds like that would suit you.

Nice punchy mid bass with two small DD.

 

[zootx]

With darker sound:
Sound Rhyme SR7 (during sale)
Shozy B2
More neutral:
Sound Rhyme SR5
Brighter neutral:
Juziar 41T
UPD
Using IEMs of this level without a DAC is a waste of money

I do have my ol' reliable Fiio E17K at my office desk. Thanks for the recs!

I am 56 years young and hear to about 14-15khz. To me the treble was sensibly relaxed not cut off like the graph indicates. Like I said I don’t pay much attention to graphs but I do recall that aspect now you mention it.

It wasn’t dramatically lacking treble to my ears and I tend to like somewhat elevated treble. I have the S12 Pro, IE600, Dan Clark Aeon Noire among a few others that are somewhat bright and they are fine for me.

Even after those the Fan 2 didn’t seem like the top end dropped off a cliff. I just couldn’t deal with the lack of upper midrange energy but it sounds like that would suit you.

Nice punchy mid bass with two small DD.

Good to know - as you imply, graphs often don't give you the full story especially for treble.

 

[thaslaya]

What is a good mid-fi IEM (for convenience, lets say below 400 USD) that you consider to have a relaxed presentation?
Relaxed presentation = no forward upper-mids or treble. (My ears are sensitive to upper mid-range forwardness like the Variations or EE Odin. Treble should not be peaky as it needs to work with a variety of genres and production qualities). I need the IEMs for the office, where I cannot install an EQ on the system.

I thought going for the Moondrop x Crinacle Dusk2, since their DSP cable can be used to EQ and they sound quite good for the price. But it might be better to use an IEM that is relaxed out of the box.

People who know me know I'm always shilling for the Aful MagicOne as well . But I do have another more recent set that is very good for the price. Fiio JH5 is like a miniature version of my favorite Softears Volume. Review coming in the next couple weeks.