[jaxtherogue]

But at the same time, there are also some horrendously bad NOS 6SN7s out there (GE, Sylvania, IMHO), as well as some seriously good new-production ones. (Psvane CV181-T MKII, for example.)

Do you have a trusted source for the Psvane CV181-T MKII? I have been looking for some tubes to try out in my Freya+. I am not unhappy with the Tung Sol tubes it shipped with, and like those better than some Electroharmonix I tried out, but wouldn't mind expanding my horizons.

 

[Paladin79]

On the right are some tubes that I felt were "meh" in the lyr 3. All had low-ish hours on them but were fully burned in. On the left are some NOS Sylvania 6sn7gta's. I liked all of them, least of all the brown "W" version but still better than the newer tubes. Also had a ken rad that I liked better too.

Maybe part of it is a question of bang for the buck. Those Sylvanias I thought were fantastic for the money. The newer tubes on the right, if I recall were in the same price ballpark.

But hey, to each their own! Being a subjectivist is fun

I have compared a few 6sn7 compatibles. New production tubes were allowed in a blind study local friends and I performed. When selling amplifiers often you need to buy what is available in quantity so Russian Tung Sols and other new tubes come into play. Now as far as quality of sound, very few of the new production made the top 100. Years ago there was a great deal of competition and companies built a lot of rugged tubes for war like conditions. Most all of the better Russian tubes were military issue, go price some Melz 1572's sometimes and you will understand why they are still held in high regards. They used the same style for four decades yet even with them, the older tubes are more sought after.

 

[Cliffh93]

If I had to speculate I'd say it's due to the fact that the more people do something, the better they get at doing it. Also, the more competition there is, the better the product tends to be. Back in the day there was a huge industry around tubes. Tons produced with all the associated institutional knowledge. Maybe you could even describe the process as more artisinal than it is now. Meaning, people, even if producing tubes for someone like the military, took pride in their work and had the resources available to really do a good job.

Now there is less competition, less iteration, more about the bottom line. And the companies making the ho-hum sounding tubes can more easily eke out a living due to less competition and perhaps less discerning ears as our culture has moved away from audiophilia being mainstream.

There’s a lot to be said for ‘institutional knowledge’ or what I call human capital. It seems that doing the job right is the first thing to go when management starts looking for scale and efficiency.

 

[lemp]

I assume bcowan has already seen this cutting tool:

 

[theeclone]

There’s a lot to be said for ‘institutional knowledge’ or what I call human capital. It seems that doing the job right is the first thing to go when management starts looking for scale and efficiency.

See: Twitter (though, yeah the code probably sucks, which is another discussion)

 

[Pondoro]

I too have been wary of Apple Music ever since reports like yours surfaced years ago. I have much music ripped from CDs, in lossless, that I did not want replaced with an online version. And sometimes multiple versions which would be lost.
I stayed conservative. I keep all the ripped music in an old version of iTunes running on older machines which support OS High Sierra since that is the last version to fully support the classic iPods. These Macs are never logged into Apple Music. Notice when I have referred to my main headphone and whole house system/kit I list a Mac Mini 2011 -> DAC ->

In my very recent re-visit to streaming music I am working from a newer computer where none of my ripped music is located. Trying Amazon Prime Music currently with a plan of testing Apple Music free trial next.

Big point here is that my ripped music and streaming will not coincide on a single computer. Apple, Amazon, Spotify or what not.

Good luck and report back with your out come.

I am a confirmed Apple user of iPhone and iPad but no music ever gets near them. I bought a Samsung tablet solely for use as a car player. I am considering a Samsung/Modi/Vali 2+/Headphone combo as a portable (protected by foam) system for hotel use.

 

[O8h7w]

Adult beverages are probably the cheapest way to improve the sound from your (or any) system

Mostly true, but not entirely. Placement of speakers is a common exception.

And a good audio purchase might do the trick for a long long time! If we're talking good bottles of whisky, in a place where such things are expensive, there's not that many of those to a Modi Multibit.

Well am sure glad nobody grabbed by Naim integrated while I had it listed. After getting a Freya N on a whim decided I wanted to go separates, but a single Aegir didn't sound great in buffer or passive, and there wasn't enough juice in tube mode, and two Aegirs sounds like it wouldn't do either. Don't think I want the Vidar sound signature, so back into the chain for the old green eye. Maybe my boxed up Freya N will hold its value since it's OOP, or we go to a larger house where I can try Tyrs. Always worth trying new ideas!

I'm quite interested to know which speakers you have where the Naim fared better than the Aegir.

Now there is less competition, less iteration, more about the bottom line. And the companies making the ho-hum sounding tubes can more easily eke out a living due to less competition and perhaps less discerning ears as our culture has moved away from audiophilia being mainstream.

I think we should not fool ourselves into thinking that business by and large was any less about the bottom line in earlier times than it is now. I do think there has been a tendency towards more short-sightedness. The quarterly earnings reports of publicly traded companies seem to me to have become far too important and appear to be setting the tone for much of business.

Competition I do believe to be very important for the focus on quality in any industry. Sometimes there's a race to the bottom instead, sure, but if you put out bad product and there is an alternative that isn't bad, you're going to lose. If you're short-sighted enough you might not care though.

Nostalgia, the old "they don't make 'em like they used to" bias.

For each and every magnificent Melz and Westinghouse out there, there are dozens of NOS duds, too. They're just not talked about as much, because why would you even want to discuss them if they don't sound all that good to begin with?!

It's a form of survivor bias, that which is good is what sticks around.

It's no surprise to me that the cream of the crop from the heyday of tubes is really really hard for the current crop to go up against. Then again, technology has advanced a lot so some things may be feasible now that were not feasible back then, wherefore it would not be entirely surprising to find the reverse to be true either.

For value I'd bet on old stuff over new production stuff in almost every case, not just tubes - but with the important caveat that it is normally much harder to know what is good and what is bad when buying old stuff.

 

[JamminVMI]

Tube Noob question:

Why are NOS tubes considered to be better sounding than newer ones?

JK: Because NOS is short for 'nostalgia'...

Apologies, someone in an armchair got to the same place afore I did. sigh...

 

[Paladin79]

Mostly true, but not entirely. Placement of speakers is a common exception.

And a good audio purchase might do the trick for a long long time! If we're talking good bottles of whisky, in a place where such things are expensive, there's not that many of those to a Modi Multibit.


I'm quite interested to know which speakers you have where the Naim fared better than the Aegir.


I think we should not fool ourselves into thinking that business by and large was any less about the bottom line in earlier times than it is now. I do think there has been a tendency towards more short-sightedness. The quarterly earnings reports of publicly traded companies seem to me to have become far too important and appear to be setting the tone for much of business.

Competition I do believe to be very important for the focus on quality in any industry. Sometimes there's a race to the bottom instead, sure, but if you put out bad product and there is an alternative that isn't bad, you're going to lose. If you're short-sighted enough you might not care though.



It's a form of survivor bias, that which is good is what sticks around.

It's no surprise to me that the cream of the crop from the heyday of tubes is really really hard for the current crop to go up against. Then again, technology has advanced a lot so some things may be feasible now that were not feasible back then, wherefore it would not be entirely surprising to find the reverse to be true either.

For value I'd bet on old stuff over new production stuff in almost every case, not just tubes - but with the important caveat that it is normally much harder to know what is good and what is bad when buying old stuff.

Technology has advanced in some areas. There was a golden age of tubes IMHO, Chinese tubes are getting better. Other countries used tubes much longer than we did but often they learned from us. Svetlana winged “C”’s are a great example.

 

[JohnnyCanuck]

Some members posted they were going to try the new amps Rekkr and Gjallarhorn with some Zu speakers. Has anyone done this yet?

I drove my Zu Essence speakers with a Gjallarhorn in place of my Aegir for a week. Very, very close in terms of SQ and more than loud enough. And I play much of my music quite loud.

JC

 

[valiant66]

7500 !!
.

 

[O8h7w]

There was some discussion on which amps are actually good for the infamous HE-6, as the Rekkr and Gjallarhorn do seem fairly interesting for that.

I don't know the answer, but I understand it to be far more complicated than it might seem.

Depending on the load, an amplifier might be limited by either current (amps) or voltage (volts). Sometimes I think talking about power (watts) is doing a disservice to all of us, because we lose that distinction.

Then it gets worse: I'm not sure whether a typical amp has its limits in terms of current and voltage constant enough throughout ranges of impedance. I don't know EE, but I know the physics of transistors... I won't be surprised if they do weird stuff.

I do know that phase shifts can also severely limit the power some amps can put out. A review mag I used to read tested amplifier power at 8, 4, 2 and 1 ohms, at 0° as well as 30° and 60° positive and negative phase shifts. These measurements would predict which amplifiers could handle difficult speakers without losing control, with high accuracy.

Open backed headphones shouldn't have too much frequency-dependent impedance dips and phase shifts going on though, right? I don't know, I think I've only ever seen those curves for loudspeakers.

Frequency itself will also have a direct impact on how much power an amplifier will put out, but power is generally specified for the audible range, so we pretty much have that covered. Maybe it doesn't quite tell us how much power it can put into a transient, the impulse response into a load.

Finally, sensitivity is generally specified for a 1 kHz sine wave. That's probably a problem. It might tell us very little about how much power that transducer will need when trying to produce bass and transients.

Overall, I'd love to read a well-researched treaty on how much power is actually needed, by several different transducers, when playing several different sounds. A sine wave. A note from a violin. An impulse response. A drumstick counting-in hit. A bass drum hit. A bowed note from an upright bass. A plucked one from an electric bass. A synth bass drum sound, these can get extreme.

And when looking at these sounds rather than sine waves, with real transducers, does it even scale as we think it does with SPL? IIRC our ears will actually mess that up.

A man that taught me a lot of general truths about technology and physics has a favorite saying that goes like this: "It seems simple, but wait until I've explained..."

 

[OldRoadToad]

For much the same reason why [ insert random product here ] is considered by many to be superior to its modern counterpart: Nostalgia, the old "they don't make 'em like they used to" bias.

That is not to say that there aren't any fantastic NOS tubes out there. Some Melz and Westinghouse 6SN7s, for example, are truly fantastic and can't be beat with new-production equivalents.
But at the same time, there are also some horrendously bad NOS 6SN7s out there (GE, Sylvania, IMHO), as well as some seriously good new-production ones. (Psvane CV181-T MKII, for example.)

Meanwhile, over in the 6922 camp, the new-production Genalex Gold Lion E88CC is pretty much unbeatable in sonic performance. I have yet to hear a NOS tube that comes even close.

For each and every magnificent Melz and Westinghouse out there, there are dozens of NOS duds, too. They're just not talked about as much, because why would you even want to discuss them if they don't sound all that good to begin with?! And new-production tubes aren't quite as collectable (and thus worthy of discussion) as the few really good NOS tubes are. And so you end up with most of the debate that's out there focusing mainly on the handful of noteworthy NOS tube types, and that makes it seem like they'd be the bee's knees.

That's just the internet doing its thing, I suppose.

So, personally? I don't think that NOS sounds any better or worse than new production. Some NOS tubes outperform their new production counterparts, while other new production tubes leave their NOS brethren in the dust. It really depends on the specific tube you're looking at.

Which looks better? NOS or New Stuff? I know looks are subjective but that is not a problem as just preferring tubes to solid state is also a subjective matter.

ORT

 

[r2muchstuff]

I am a confirmed Apple user of iPhone and iPad but no music ever gets near them. I bought a Samsung tablet solely for use as a car player. I am considering a Samsung/Modi/Vali 2+/Headphone combo as a portable (protected by foam) system for hotel use.

Haha, "system for hotel use". I call mine the Transportable Kit. No airplanes involved.
Every thing fits into an "ammo" box with headphones in another.
This is my first and only (so far) black Schiit. A Cambridge SoundWorks Bass Case may tag along for speaker duty. Rekkr(2) and ? speakers are calling to be part of this, yet it is very hard to have a valid reason. The Bass Case is so nice.
Recently updated from the silver stack that is now the bedside kit, due to the OG Modi MB. Almost all of the black items were "B" stock or part of that sell off.

Schiit Stack
FiiO X3II
iCon iDo / iPod 256GB SS Mod
Schiit Modi 3E (ESS ES9018) (black)
Schiit Loki + (black)
Schiit Vali 2+ (black) & tubes
Schiit Magni IEM
FiiO Digital out coax cables
IC Cables
AC Bricks & Chargers
AC Power strip

Headphone Kit
Sennheiser HD 598 Cs (23 ohm)
Sennheiser HD 598 SR (50 ohm)
Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro (250 ohm)
Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro (250 ohm)
HiFiMan HE 400S (22 ohm)
Oppo PM-3 (26 ohm)
IEMs

TMI and I hope not boring.

 

[r66cort]

I drove my Zu Essence speakers with a Gjallarhorn in place of my Aegir for a week. Very, very close in terms of SQ and more than loud enough. And I play much of my music quite loud.

Would love to hear more @JohnnyCanuck! Very close, as in they are "voiced" similarly - with rich mid tonality? Any comments on soundstage and dynamics?

Just bought a Freya S and am crossing fingers for silver metal so I can pursue Gjallarhorn monoblocks. Have started looking into media blasting operations on my drive home from the Schittr, as a contingency.