Sonicweld/Cryo-Parts Diverter 96/24 USB to SPDIF Review
Sep 23, 2009 at 4:52 PM Post #31 of 318
scootermafia, thanks for sharing your experiences. I own the Empirical offramp3 and have wondered about the differences.


I can't understand why everyone bashes this product. Is it just because it looks nice? Nobody seems to question the Empirical stuff, which is priced similarly, and is packaged in an inexpensive enclosure. To say the pop pulse unit should sound just as good also seems questionable. I mean this is a board where you can buy a $50 headphone amp all the way up to a 5K headphone amp. They both amplify headphones right? But of course most of us know there's a huge difference in sound between the 2 price points. Why can't this same rule apply to digital gear?
 
Sep 23, 2009 at 8:11 PM Post #32 of 318
Quote:

Originally Posted by santacore /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can't understand why everyone bashes this product. Is it just because it looks nice? Nobody seems to question the Empirical stuff, which is priced similarly, and is packaged in an inexpensive enclosure. To say the pop pulse unit should sound just as good also seems questionable. I mean this is a board where you can buy a $50 headphone amp all the way up to a 5K headphone amp. They both amplify headphones right? But of course most of us know there's a huge difference in sound between the 2 price points. Why can't this same rule apply to digital gear?


The reason people bash this product is because of its price compared to the features, obviously not because it looks nice.

No one stated the pop pulse would be equal, but I'm glad it was compared no matter how selectively it could have been chosen and based on the reviewers hearing and other mental factors involved. Others such as the Haggerman USB, the M-audio transit, emu0404 USB, Musiland monitor, and so many more are 1/10th of the price and many quote similar or more features that also need to be compared fairly (IE also with measurements this time please!). This thing is in reality very simple in function from all I can tell. It doesn't do higher bitrates, is not asynchronous, doesn't do AES, i2s, or toslink output, and the worst part is the lack of third party measurements and technical details of the electronics which are what really I think should really matter to audiophiles.

Of course there are transports out there that are probably worth a grand in my book, especially for disk based digital audio. The seller sets the price though, there is no audio god that defines quality and then sets the price accordingly. This is measured by consumer response and if by selling even one to the gullible nets you a cool $850 profit, then the seller may be fine with lower numbers (especially when its a product that does not really compete, but is using the price to make it hard to access for comparison to products that may outperform and also contain more sometimes better features). Believe it or not, shills exist for a reason. But hey, if the customers happy in ignorance, let them have their smug satisfaction in peace.

So, I hate to tell you that there is no rule that a 5k amplifier necessarily sounds better then a $50 one, believe it or not. The Grado RA-1 is akin to a watered down cmoy in a small wooden box at six times the price, the price is set not set by the quality of sound, but by the manufacturer and its the customers decision to pay in or not. There are many many examples of this in the real world (also some of Rega's amplifier stuff for example). I have what I think is a healthy level of skepticism.

Buying this device without any hard technical facts and/or testing this yourself in comparison to other options seems like the person would have to be very undiscerning with money and value or either very uninformed about other options (a large problem I believe I notice on these boards as well).

PS. Many many people bash empirical audio on a multitude of sites if you read the replies to any of their reviews, you can surely find some with a quick search especially for the $500 to $800 digital interconnects they sell. Empirical Audio is an integral part of team snake oil even here on head-fi.
 
Sep 23, 2009 at 8:47 PM Post #33 of 318
Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have found absolutely no reports at all in that matter and have searched. How does a bitperfect or non-bitperfect USB transport create random speed-ups?

I can see stutters or pops possibly with bad drivers or computer software problems though I haven't heard reports of this. That sounds outrageous. Whats your information source there?



Personal experience of having owned one, used with two different computers and two different DACs (Stello DA100 and MSB Power DAC).

edit: Used Windows XP, Foobar, Kernel Streaming and ASIO
 
Sep 23, 2009 at 9:14 PM Post #34 of 318
Quote:

Originally Posted by some1x /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Personal experience of having owned one, used with two different computers and two different DACs (Stello DA100 and MSB Power DAC).


I'd like to ask what software, setup you used to see if anyone can recreate that, I'll test it soon myself, but I guess I should leave that to another topic. Thanks for that info.
 
Sep 23, 2009 at 9:31 PM Post #35 of 318
Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This thing is in reality very simple in function from all I can tell. It doesn't do higher bitrates, is not asynchronous, doesn't do AES, i2s, or toslink output, and the worst part is the lack of third party measurements and technical details of the electronics which are what really I think should really matter to audiophiles.


X2
I agree and I get a vague impression that this nice looking toy smells like snake oil.
However, Scooter usally knows what he's talking about and I'd like to try this thing but not for the mighty price of USD1299.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by manaox2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
PS. Many many people bash empirical audio on a multitude of sites if you read the replies to any of their reviews, you can surely find some with a quick search especially for the $500 to $800 digital interconnects they sell. Empirical Audio is an integral part of team snake oil even here on head-fi.


x2
I'm not even sure that $500 to $800 digital interconnects qualify for snake oil. This is rather insane!
deadhorse.gif
.


Punk.
 
Sep 23, 2009 at 9:45 PM Post #36 of 318
manaox2, I hear where you're coming from. Value is a very subjective thing, especially in the audio world. The bottom line to me is does a product sound better. If it does, then I feel it's worth more money, which is apparently what the OP decided about the Diverter. My own example-I currently own the Empirical Audio Offramp 3. Previously I owned the Trends UD10.1. Both handled the USB to S/Pdif conversion that I required, but at very different price points. I chose the Empirical devise because I thought it sounded much better. Was it $600 better? Well to me it was, which is why I'm still using it. The same goes for my new Sennheiser HD800's. Are they worth 1K more then the HD650's I also own? To me they are, which is why I'm keeping them. I couldn't tell you how they measure or what materials were used. I just know that they sound fantastic to me and are worth the money.

I agree with you that price does not always equal performance. There are many audio products that outperform higher priced pieces. But generally I find that you get what you pay for. Higher priced audio gear generally is built better and sounds better.

Back to more listening......
 
Sep 24, 2009 at 7:38 AM Post #38 of 318
I appreciate the spirited discussion here, and I thought that as the owner of Sonicweld and designer of the Diverter perhaps my perspective might be of interest. This is my first post here, and I apologize that it is so lengthy. My intent isn’t to use this as free ad copy, but to offer my sincere thoughts about some of the issues raised.

Every product is by definition the incarnation of a designer’s philosophy and values. I occasionally encounter suspicion or even derision of my designs because they have a certain look and style - clearly, I place a high value on the product’s design and aesthetics. There are some here who seem to feel this is something to be ashamed of, apparently because it represents some sort of industry-wide conspiracy to defraud ignorant and gullible customers. I confess to taking umbrage at this, at least in the case of my own products. I can’t understand how high design - even art - somehow precludes the functional core of the device from being meticulously and innovatively engineered. To me, it does not follow that something made to look terrific necessarily means that I haphazardly stuffed the interior with $20 worth of garden-variety, “random” parts and am laughing all the way to the bank. Performance of my products is first and foremost in my mind, but I can’t conceive of how it makes me a lesser (or dishonest) designer to care enough and have the skill to enrobe what I design in what I hope is a striking and functional piece of industrial art.

In my experience, the criticism of beautifully-made tech is unique to high-end audio, and I find it rather odd. It’s not that I can’t see any reasons for it, which I discuss below, just that the core assumption is completely counterintuitive to me. For instance, I’ve never seen anyone at a car enthusiast forum speculate that the engine in a Bugatti Veyron must be a piece of trash simply because the exterior of the vehicle looks cool. To me, it seems far more likely that a designer who took the time and care to come up with an innovative and well-made outer package would also exercise similar judgment and skill in executing whatever is found on the inside.

The chassis of the Diverter took over a dozen attempts and several weeks to perfect. It required specialized tooling, toolholders, and fixtures, all at significant expense. Each chassis requires six set-ups in the CNC machine, and I had to write and perfect twelve programs for the whole procedure. Why would I take the time and care to make something as involved as this, and not give at least equal weight to what goes into it? I find the idea to be truly bizarre. Nonetheless, I’ve tried to puzzle through where people might be coming from.

Perhaps this community belief can be attributed in part to a legitimate societal mistrust of the beautiful, because beauty often masks some kind of deception. Or rather, beauty is frequently exploited by those with some nefarious or selfish agenda. We’re all familiar with the stereotype of the attractive but vacuous person; the handsome sociopath; the suave but ultimately self-aggrandizing salesman.

I am aware that there have been a number of forum exposés of certain “high-end” audio products which feature a seductively attractive chassis or enclosure, but are revealed to contain cheap, low-grade, off-the-shelf electronics. Occasionally the parts or assemblies even seem to have been harvested from some consumer-grade mass market product! I’ve seen more than a few of these myself, and if anything I surmise I react with more anger than most of you do, because it cheapens the overall high-end audio brand and violates the collective trust in enthusiast-produced products. I can assure you that there’s nothing like this going on in the Diverter, but of course many of you might not take that assertion at face value. After all, I am a manufacturer, so I have an inherent agenda: to generate a profit. That should be obvious, but my driving force is passion about my product, not simply a desire to profit from it. I think this is descriptive of most people in this business. If I simply wanted to make money, I would have pursued a different profession. Believe me, there are easier ways to make a living. There are certainly shysters in the industry whose MO seems to be to build some dingus from prosaic and inexpensive ingredients, make wild and fantastic claims about it, and charge an inordinate amount for it. I’m not that guy.

Perhaps the suspicion of pretty boxes comes from the understanding that most designers work under tight budget constraints, and if the exterior is rad... well then, they must have blown all their budget on the package and left nothing for the guts, right? Maybe that’s true in the world of big corporate design, but I don’t operate under such limitations. I’m the industrial designer, engineer, CNC programmer/operator, assembler, inspector, and so forth. Of course I don’t have unlimited financial resources to design whatever I want (just received notice that I won the UK lottery, so hoping this will change soon
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), but when I approach a new project, I map out what I’m aiming to accomplish, design it, and set the price afterwards. Naturally I have at least a vague price target or idea of where I see the product being positioned in the market, but I own the business and am ultimately free to create whatever I like. I can spend just as much (in the case of the Diverter, more!) on the electronics as I can on the housing - where’s the exclusivity clause that mandates either the chassis or the electronics inside can be great, but not both?

So what are you paying for when you buy the Diverter? Aside from obvious, pat answers like sound quality, pride of ownership, build integrity, reliability, or performance, I think I’d say “implementation.” I don’t claim any quantum tunneling effects or other sorcery are going on in the Diverter. There’s very little new under the sun. What is of value there is the way I’ve done it, the care with which it is executed, the attention to the details. The details are expensive to address and require many design cycles. If you're happy with the jittery, non-isolated, incorrect voltage S/PDIF output from the impedance-mismatched connector on your motherboard, by all means use that. Yes, it works, and it's free. It might even sound okay. The Diverter isn't about merely working; its about giving the best performance possible, and that is generally an expensive proposition.

In reflecting on what has influenced me as a designer, I can think of several things: the wonderment of wandering about art galleries, the feel of a well-made tool in my hands, the amazement I felt when I saw an oscilloscope for the first time as a child. But probably more than anything else, I would say I was influenced by the moon shot space program and the remarkable engineering that came as a result of it. Can any card-carrying tech geek claim that the F1 booster engine used on the Saturn V isn’t a gorgeous and awe-inspiring example of the form-follows-function design philosophy? It would be inconceivable to claim that the designers of such a machine were engaged in some kind of ruse, that the engineering was less than genuine and first-class, simply because the result ended up looking trick. Granted, I’m not making rocket parts, but that same kind of authenticity is what I strive for in my designs. I want anyone who sees or picks up something I made to feel reassured that the interior received as much attention as the exterior. I concede that modern cynicism might make this a rather utopian and perhaps naive ideal, but it’s my abiding hope.

I freely admit - with pride, in fact - that I often add some external design features that have no audio-specific function. They simply appeal to the senses. I do not apologize for this or feel any shame in it, nor would I expect that any designer who sincerely practices their art would. This being said, the design of the Diverter, both electronically and mechanically, was all about function first. In the scheme of product development, the aesthetic icing on the cake is a blip compared to the overall engineering. But if you’re absolutely averse to paying for such features - and yes, of course they cost something to produce! - vive la différence; there is a veritable cornucopia of alternative products that espouse a utilitarian design philosophy. Or, you can throw together your own design on a piece of perfboard and forget the chassis altogether. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I’ve done the same myself scores of times when prototyping, but you can’t logically hold a commercial product to that same standard and claim it is outrageously priced just because it costs more than the arithmetic sum of its constituent parts. I’m endeavoring to offer very refined products that extract the Nth degree of performance, not prototype-grade ones. For me, to encase the electronics I worked so hard on in anything less than the coolest housing I can think of is anathema to me, from both a functional as well as artistic standpoint. Of course I recognize that many will not share this particular set of values.

In the absence of details like internal pictures and schematics, many of you will continue to remain suspicious of this product, and that perfectly okay. I’m under no delusions of trying to sway more than a tiny slice of audiophile world to my way of thinking. Why am I not more forthcoming? Well, for three reasons. Firstly, why relinquish what I consider to be valuable competitive advantage? I’m sure my competitors read the forums, just as I occasionally do. Secondly, I rather suspect that those who call most loudly for more openness and transparency in design details are precisely those who would be least satisfied or convinced by it. During my years in this business, I have never had a single customer specify the intimate discussion of circuit details or parts choice as a condition for a successful sale. None of my customers seem to care if I’m using Black Gates or some other part du jour. Generally, they meet me, feel some resonance with my philosophy as a designer, appreciate the design and quality of my products, and most importantly are satisfied with their performance. Whether they like how it looks, how it sounds, how it makes them feel, or some combination of the all of these, they ultimately find it has compelling value. Thirdly, the high-end suffers from acute product verbiage inflation. So many manufacturers claim to feature “military” grade parts, “aircraft” grade aluminum, “proprietary” design, and so forth ad nauseam. It seems any more that unless one engages in the most egregious hyperbole, it’s hard to make any claims stand out from the background noise. I’d rather not play that game, so I choose to say less than engage in marketing-speak logorrhea.

I’ve gone on for quite a bit here, so I’ll quit. If there is a desire for me to discuss more about the design itself, I’d be happy to do so, with some limits.

Happy listening to all!
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 2:09 AM Post #39 of 318
if this device is the only one in the market, it can charge whatever it wants and probably get away with it. but, there are other products out there and coming out that are either equal, better (who knows) than this at the fraction of cost that this device commands.

I don't get ticked off by it cuz I am not interested in buying such product. After all, it's your money. however you wanna spend it, it's your choice ultimately.
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 3:38 AM Post #40 of 318
Oh really? you've seen the jitter measurments for this then eh? Cool share them. Until it's profesionally reviewed, you should not assume your precious musiland is equel to or greater, perhaps it is, but we don't know. This thing maybe close to a Offramp or Pace car for all we know, which the musiland is nowhere near.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif
if this device is the only one in the market, it can charge whatever it wants and probably get away with it. but, there are other products out there and coming out that are either equal, better (who knows) than this at the fraction of cost that this device commands.

I don't get ticked off by it cuz I am not interested in buying such product. After all, it's your money. however you wanna spend it, it's your choice ultimately.



 
Sep 25, 2009 at 1:31 PM Post #42 of 318
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Oh really? you've seen the jitter measurments for this then eh? Cool share them. Until it's profesionally reviewed, you should not assume your precious musiland is equel to or greater, perhaps it is, but we don't know. This thing maybe close to a Offramp or Pace car for all we know, which the musiland is nowhere near.


That's exactly my point. There is no jitter measurement of this device either. Fancy case with proprietary, yet hidden driver that none of us scientifically.

Like you said, we will need to wait for more professional and thorough scientific review of it against other competing products. Without those, it's hard to tell.. But, darn man. It's only a converter.. Not a fancy DAC/AMP, etc.. Why would converter cost $1299?
 
Sep 26, 2009 at 8:35 AM Post #45 of 318
The device is most of the way broken in and it has really increased my listening enjoyment. The sound is just more coherent sounding, like everything is in the right place and is natural. I can't totally describe it, just that I am a lot happier now with the HD800 sound than before. It is tricky to express as it is not really just doing one thing right but many things. It's that feeling where your brain is going crazy from the awesomeness. It's adrenaline, it can't be faked or be produced from bad gear. For a while when I first got the HD800s, while they were impressive there was this hesitation in my mind, that something wasn't right, that is now gone. Not my most articulate way of describing things, but there you go. It's hard to trust a $1000 USB transport, but worth every penny.

People keep saying it's $1299, it's been $999 for a while and maybe Lee won't increase the price.

Consider the distinctly real possibility that this thing can have the most elaborate casework of any transport out there AND be the best sounding transport there is.
 

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