[vcoheda]

cheap and high end don't really go together.

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif cheap and high end don't really go together.

There are a difference between "cheap" and "cheapest" though.
$10,000 may be the "cheapest" entry in my opinion (I don't state that it is), but it is not then said that it is "cheap".

I believe an SR-007 and a nice matching amplifier are one of the cheapest entries into high-end audio. Money wise, lets say $2,500-3,000.

 

[Jingo Lingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif It did originally say "What would represent the cheapest entry into hifi?". At least thats the reason why I though it were misplaced. Since this is is the High-End forum, and not "just" the hifi one...

I meant "High End" with regards to the name of this very forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are a difference between "cheap" and "cheapest" though. $10,000 may be the "cheapest" entry in my opinion (I don't state that it is), but it is not then said that it is "cheap". I believe an SR-007 and a nice matching amplifier are one of the cheapest entries into high-end audio. Money wise, lets say $2,500-3,000.

So, is say a RS-1 or GS-1000 with good amplification not High-End? I'm just interested to know your thoughts.

 

[progo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jingo Lingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, is say a RS-1 or GS-1000 with good amplification not High-End? I'm just interested to know your thoughts.

What? Do you mean that a nice source, amplification and a GS1000 won't cost $2,500?

The thing is that highenders don't look at the price tags. Or then they look.

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jingo Lingo /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, is say a RS-1 or GS-1000 with good amplification not High-End?

In my opinion they are not High-End. Too many compromises...

 

[Jingo Lingo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by progo /img/forum/go_quote.gif What? Do you mean that a nice source, amplification and a GS1000 won't cost $2,500?

No, I didn't mention price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif In my opinion they are not High-End. Too many compromises...

Thanks for your opinion. Obviously all of this speak of High End has a lot to do with ones sonic preferences and musical tastes. Personally, when it comes to my preferred genre of music; rock, I do not find my RS-1's to be a compromise in any way. I do not think they are the pinnacle of rock music production, but I can't see much room for improvement. With other genres this is obviously different. I would love to hear a SR-007 one day of course.

 

[Kees]

I think if we're talking about high-end in audio in general that headphones are not part of it, with the possible exception of the HE90 and O2 top combinations.

If we restrict ourselves to the headphone world, I think I would add a few more: AKG K1000, Grado PS-1 (maybe HP1000) , Sony R10 (maybe Qualia) and ATH L3000. Balanced HD650 with a top amp is a borderline case.

The rest (GS1000, Edition 9, DX1000, headphile K340, ATH woodies, Deep cup Darths, HE60, Stax4040, single ended HD650 with top amp) are really great sounding hi-fi, but clearly not in the same league.

Third league would be (for me): K701, DT880/990, RS1/RS2, HD600, PRO 2500/750, Denon D2000, Kenwood KH-K1000, etc.)

Now where do you draw the line?


Just my 2 cents...

 

[mrarroyo]

High end should first sound good to the user. It does not matter if everyone likes a particular headphone and that it costs a lot of money. To those who love its sound it would be considered high end, but how about those who do not enjoy its sound? I would say they would not classify said unit as high end.

For example, many here love the sound of a Senn HD600/650 balanced out of a great sounding amp. I have heard such a combo with various re-cables and through various amps at meets. Most recently at the CanJam 08.

It was a nice sounding can but I would choose an RS-1 even in single ended configuration over the balanced HD650. This does not mean that one is better than the other, just a matter of my preference and bias.

The same could be said of the K340 which w/ the right re-cable and amp will beat just about any combination out there. Again, IMO.

As I said before, hi end has more to do with what you hear than with how much it cost and by definition it is variable to a great extent.

 

[braillediver]

High-End has more to do with design and execution. Start with a great design, implement the design with thoughtful consideration to components, chose and place the components with an insight to what is really needed where, a well thought out layout properly implemented. Exemplary assembly. Ad a well-executed enclosure that is aesthetically appealing acoustically dampened with quality materials.

Did I mention cost? No. The component should be built to cater to specific price points but not necessarily with cost in mind.

You can take the finest components known to mankind and still build a terrible unit. And you can take reasonably inexpensive components and take the time to create something wonderful.


I really don’t think cost should be in your top 5 considerations when considering “High-End”.


Mitch

 

[Zanth]

Awesome post Mitch. I agree completely. Price doesn't necessarily have to play into it. In fact, once a great circuit is designed for instance, and parts are chosen carefully, much of the cost goes into boutique internals or overbuilt chassis and marketing. All fine and good mind you, but certainly not necessary... at least to get the high end sound.

 

[selfdivider]

If I had to sell my gear off & face crunch time, I would get:

Jolida 1501A hybrid integrated amp: ~$400 (used). 12ax7 tubes in the pre-amp stage with MOSFET solid state output. 100 wpc. You get best of both the tubes & SS.

Devore Gibbon 8 speakers: ~$1200 (used). These speakers are not really the "bare minimum" hi-fi speakers. They are pretty freakin' great, and would be awesome in many legitimate hi-fi systems, especially those that are triode-based. I've seen these pop up on Audiogon at this price point, and I'd totally jump on them...

Sony Playstation SCPH-1001: ~$25 (used). Let the deterrents say what they may, but this is a fantastic player. Been recently praised by the difficult-to-please Art Dudley at Stereophile. A legitimate CDP; I use it with no shame in my system... really musical. If you're the type to be mindful of others' opinions, though, Consonance CD120 Linear is killer (~$600 used). I frankly preferred it to Cambridge Audio 840C, which I used to have. Love this player.

Anti-Cable speaker cables ($85 for 6') and interconnects ($100 for 1 m): No need to splurge on cables, but they are an important chain in the system. Don't go too cheapie. If you want a slightly warmer, more robust sound, try Cardas Twinlink speaker cables/ICs (~$250 used).

Make sure to purchase all used items from sellers on Audiogon who have 100% feedback! I never came out on the wrong side of the rails.

So, total system cost! If you go PS1 and Anti-Cable: $1810. Not bad, right? That's for a complete system, with cables taken into consideration. I can be content with this system. If you're in the splurge mode

& go with Consonance Linear CDP and Cardas cabling: $2450. That's still less than what some people spend on cables & power cords!

I'd go with speakers rather than headphones for a baseline high-end system. Don't get me wrong, I love headphones, but when I listen to music, I like to feel the visceral air that proper speakers can provide.

 

[Akabeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by braillediver /img/forum/go_quote.gif High-End has more to do with design and execution. Start with a great design, implement the design with thoughtful consideration to components, chose and place the components with an insight to what is really needed where, a well thought out layout properly implemented. Exemplary assembly. Ad a well-executed enclosure that is aesthetically appealing acoustically dampened with quality materials. Did I mention cost? No. The component should be built to cater to specific price points but not necessarily with cost in mind. You can take the finest components known to mankind and still build a terrible unit. And you can take reasonably inexpensive components and take the time to create something wonderful. I really don’t think cost should be in your top 5 considerations when considering “High-End”. Mitch

Agreed

High-end is a really relative term for everyone, including myself. I found that at least from my experience, finding equipment synergy to cater to the owner's taste counts for a *lot* of audio gear related purchase.

My principles have always put musical experience at the forefront when I purchase my gear. I couldn't care less what it retails for, what pay for it as long as it's justifiable for the way and amount of time I use it for.

I can't go all-out right now on my setup though which is a shame. If you ask me, my setup is not even close to what I define as high-end. Sadly, I think I have long ways to go.

So until I find what's truly my cheapest entry to high-end audio, I have nothing to add here, sorry.


Edit: Also I want to add, if I learned anything after being around so many cars in my life, anything high-end is 'personal', among many other things. At this level up the food chain, almost always cost is no-longer an object and public opinion is far out of consideration.

This is why I love being around music/drooling over audio equipment, and cars my whole life. It's a personal thing.

 

[recstar24]

For me, high end starts with your source. If you think about it, the one major component that seperates a rig that I would classify as hiend vs one that is mid or low fi, is the source they are using. I look around, and see plenty of users that have similar amplification and headphones as I do, if not better, but whereas I am using a meridian 508.24, they might be using an ipod or their computer soundcard. In my experience, the source is the 2nd biggest contributor to the final sound output right after the headphones. It can make or break a system, and amplification and headphones are so good nowadays that they can really reveal a hi end source and its superiority over a lower end source. Look at the thread asr started, we are talking about sources that go as high as 10,000+, these guys mean business.

With that in mind, if I was looking for cheap hi end, I would have to start with my source. IMO, the sources that I could be happy with are in the $2000+ range give or take, I'm just that picky with my source unfortunately. A good simaudio or naim would be a nice start. I love the meridian sound, and the 508.24 by many is considered to be one of the best, some such as myself find it better than their G08, and can be had for $1500 or less used. Not too shabby for a $4000 machine. The modded Sources like APL and modwright I would classify as high end, but same thing, you are dealing with $2000 plus or minus if not more.

That is just the source - a good amp like an EC/SS for $400 or even a gilmore lite would give me the transparency I need to really show off that source. Couple it with my favorite can of choice still in production, grado rs-1 or sennheiser hd650, and I would be very happy and would feel that as a nice entry point into hiend.

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

^ Yes yes yes yes and yes. Where's the clapping hands smiley when you need it?

IMHO all that DBT thing and the digital sound perceived as "bits are just bits and are all the same" has poluted the importance of the source into a High-end system. Also all that upsampling, "ultrasampling" and the tons of manipulation they perform over the digital signal has created a trendy and fashionable "signature" on the sound that many people considers high-end, which is harmful to these ears of mine.

I've listened to many DACs and CDP over the years, many in my own system. I think that for digital, the lowest I can live with, if I'm going to listen to anything better than a pair of IEMs, is a Benchmark DAC-1 or a Lavry DA-10 with a decent CD transport. Also one of those old Series 7 Sonys can be just OK. The Benchmark is one of the very few upsamplers I can stand for more than 20 minutes.

Get a neutral and transparent enough amp with some guts -like the RSA SR-71- plug your favourite affordable phones, and you may have a slice of HE for not much money.

Rgrds

 

[catscratch]

High end to me is the stage at which the system disappears and the music is left behind. It's the stage at which the only differences between systems are matters of preference rather than outright performance.

My rigs have been usually in the $2-4k range, and none of them have been really high-end, in my opinion, though a few were close. I may know a lot of high-end headphones like the back of my hand, but I never had the money to actually do them justice in my own rig. But, my goal wasn't to build the ultimate rig but to familiarize myself with what's available. Which is why, now that I am familiar with a lot of the options out there, I'll narrow down my stash and focus on a simple, minimal, yet undeniably high-end rig.

You can't really put a price tag on it, though. I've had rigs that were very close to high-end for under a grand. I've also had $4k rigs that sounded like a mess. I think flawlessness is the key here - the less flaws you have to distract you from the music, the closer to high-end you're going to get. Musicality doesn't really factor into it per se, since a lack of emotional involvement in the music is a flaw. A flawless system is by definition involving, though the character of its presentation may vary.