[msolok]

Every product have issues. Every.
But why it is Apple who gets all the attention because of issues?

In this case, the issues with Apple Products was being used to point out that Apple Products aren't perfect. This itself was in response to someone basically ranting on about how perfect Apple products are, how brilliantly designed and to such high standards. It was simply pointing out that Apple is not infallible and often has issues with their product designs and quality.

I mean, not even all the issues and recalls from Apple have been pointed out yet. There hasn't been a mention of the bending iPhone 6's (which Apple knew about before releasing), the iPhone 8 motherboard flex issues and recall, the iPad Pro bending issues.
Apple does tend to have a lot of recalls on its products, for issues it knows about before the products are released....


I think the real question is, why as soon as something like this is brought up do people rush in demanding why the Apple bashing? It's just so predictable and really clouds issues around products. It tends to cause more content and make people more likely to bring up the issues. Censoring of issues is not constructive and it is harmful to customers. It should really stop.

 

[Bompah]

...
I think the real question is, why as soon as something like this is brought up do people rush in demanding why the Apple bashing? It's just so predictable and really clouds issues around products. It tends to cause more content and make people more likely to bring up the issues. Censoring of issues is not constructive and it is harmful to customers. It should really stop.

No real disgreement from me, but it is also worth considering the effect of every small issue with an Apple product being blown out of proportion, just because it is Apple. They certainly aren't perfect, but they are generally better than most companies I've dealth in how they resolve these types of issues.

 

[msolok]

No real disgreement from me, but it is also worth considering the effect of every small issue with an Apple product being blown out of proportion, just because it is Apple. They certainly aren't perfect, but they are generally better than most companies I've dealth in how they resolve these types of issues.

I don't think small issues have been brought up here at all. All the issues that have been brought up have been fairly major, product breaking faults. And it always took so much effort for Apple to take action to rectify. Often a lot of people have already been made to pay to repair, or pay to replace the device completely, before Apple is willing to move to take action.
Apple here is Australia has been sued by our consumer protection agency multiple times for this in the recent past.

And then there are also the issues Apple creates with the replacement programs. They will often refuse to fix an issue if there is another issue with your device. "Your keyboard stopped working on your Macbook but have a crack on the screen? Sorry, please pay for all repairs."
These repairs are prohibitively expensive due to Apple's insistence on making non-repairable products (eg: rioting the Macbook keyboards to the aliminium case so the only way to replace the keyboard is by replacing the entire casing) in order to force their customers to buy new products instead of simply getting the old ones repaired.

So while I do think Apple does some things right (sets up Apple stores in many locations to be able to provide assistance to as many people as possible, keeping support in house as opposed to outsourced, leading to better quality and less hurried support), a lot of what they do is still heavily marred by their design and their clear preference to push customers to buy new as opposed to repair.

I think the main concern is how Apple will deal with the condensation issue. Considering how heavily they lean on the moisture detecting strips in their iPhone and Mac Books to deny warranty at the drop of a hat, this could be a big warranty and ongoing issue for a lot of people. Apple could very likely deny all liability for issues due to the moisture strips being tripped. If history is anything to go by, Apple is going to charge a lot of people for replacements prior to issuing a recall or repair program for them.

 

[3Putter]

I don't think small issues have been brought up here at all. All the issues that have been brought up have been fairly major, product breaking faults. And it always took so much effort for Apple to take action to rectify. Often a lot of people have already been made to pay to repair, or pay to replace the device completely, before Apple is willing to move to take action.
Apple here is Australia has been sued by our consumer protection agency multiple times for this in the recent past.

And then there are also the issues Apple creates with the replacement programs. They will often refuse to fix an issue if there is another issue with your device. "Your keyboard stopped working on your Macbook but have a crack on the screen? Sorry, please pay for all repairs."
These repairs are prohibitively expensive due to Apple's insistence on making non-repairable products (eg: rioting the Macbook keyboards to the aliminium case so the only way to replace the keyboard is by replacing the entire casing) in order to force their customers to buy new products instead of simply getting the old ones repaired.

So while I do think Apple does some things right (sets up Apple stores in many locations to be able to provide assistance to as many people as possible, keeping support in house as opposed to outsourced, leading to better quality and less hurried support), a lot of what they do is still heavily marred by their design and their clear preference to push customers to buy new as opposed to repair.

I think the main concern is how Apple will deal with the condensation issue. Considering how heavily they lean on the moisture detecting strips in their iPhone and Mac Books to deny warranty at the drop of a hat, this could be a big warranty and ongoing issue for a lot of people. Apple could very likely deny all liability for issues due to the moisture strips being tripped. If history is anything to go by, Apple is going to charge a lot of people for replacements prior to issuing a recall or repair program for them.

Crack on the screen means the device was injured and most likely misused. I don't blame any manufacturer for not covering a warranty when conditions exist calling into question the treatment of the product. I felt the iPhone 6s battery drain throttle they admitted to was interesting. Isn't the whole waterproofing standard interesting? You 'should' be able to do this or that and have your device survive but...Do the APM's have a moisture strip? Will normal condensation cause damage? Perhaps some effort to remove ear pads and wipe away moisture after use should be recommended? I enjoy this thread and learning about these units.

 

[tkddans]

I think the real question is, why as soon as something like this is brought up do people rush in demanding why the Apple bashing? It's just so predictable and really clouds issues around products. It tends to cause more content and make people more likely to bring up the issues. Censoring of issues is not constructive and it is harmful to customers. It should really stop.

What happens seems to me to be like this, in a nutshell...

Critics point out faults.
People who like the strengths feel they are ignored, so they debate the critics out of that motive - even if it means at times diminishing the valuable critiques.
Critics then bolster their original critiques and claim the supporters are overly biased.
Supporters then bolster their views on the strengths of Apple products.

When Apple gets involved, it goes on and on this way back and forth. Both sides seem to ignore middle ground at times while both are correct. There's probably a more complete picture that takes both strengths and flaws into account, but this is often not the vocalized perspective, sadly.

EDIT:
Critics feel the faults are overlooked by consumers.
Supporters feel the faults are overplayed while Apple seems strong in many ways that consumers appreciate.

I lean toward liking what Apple is doing, generally.

Maybe you all could lean toward the critical side of Apple. I don't fault you for that. I just think the Jobs DNA of user experience, design-first philosophy is encoded in Apple today. I think Apple has cracks in its implementation at times, but they're still pushing out products that, at the user level, give joy to users. It's a bit of a wishy washy philosophy for a company to take, but I madly respect Steve Jobs mindful take on customer experience - even if pros and experts feel at times peeved by the consumer first experience.

EDIT AGAIN:
I think this video encapsulates this dilemma with critics Apple has had for ages...


And this one sums up Apple's (Jobs') aesthetic/experience priorities...

 

[Amrit-R]

.

...

EDIT AGAIN:
I think this video encapsulates this dilemma with critics Apple has had for ages...


...

Nice. Was also interested in comments, and saw this one

'

HokeyBear
This was actually a fairly disastrous response from Steve Jobs that really hurt the company. This was 1997, more than a decade before the iPhone, and the Apple Macintosh (the company's sole product) was in bad shape. The questioner here was referring to the fact that Apple had just pulled the plug on support for OpenDoc, a cross-platform software framework for creating complex documents. Many developers (such as the questioner) had devoted years to the OpenDoc technology and made a livelihood developing applications for it since 1992, and thought Jobs abruptly dropped the technology without good reason. The questioner was asking, dude, why did you pull it? Jobs' response was basically, tough crap, no answer. Developers learned that technologies that were sacred to Apple one year could be dropped the next without cause or warning, so many devs concluded the investment wasn't worth it and abandoned the Macintosh platform in droves. The market share for the Macintosh would drop by more than 50% over the next two years as the (few) remaining developers who were loyal to the Macintosh platform fled to the greener pastures of Windows. People look at this response with rose colored glasses because of what Apple would become many, many years later, but this was actually a very poor way to respond to a legit question (although posed angrily) from the type of developers that Apple really needed to keep happy.

'

 

[3Putter]

What happens seems to me to be like this, in a nutshell...

Critics point out faults.
People who like the strengths feel they are ignored, so they debate the critics out of that motive - even if it means at times diminishing the valuable critiques.
Critics then bolster their original critiques and claim the supporters are overly biased.
Supporters then bolster their views on the strengths of Apple products.

When Apple gets involved, it goes on and on this way back and forth. Both sides seem to ignore middle ground at times while both are correct. There's probably a more complete picture that takes both strengths and flaws into account, but this is often not the vocalized perspective, sadly.

EDIT:
Critics feel the faults are overlooked by consumers.
Supporters feel the faults are overplayed while Apple seems strong in many ways that consumers appreciate.

I lean toward liking what Apple is doing, generally.

Maybe you all could lean toward the critical side of Apple. I don't fault you for that. I just think the Jobs DNA of user experience, design-first philosophy is encoded in Apple today. I think Apple has cracks in its implementation at times, but they're still pushing out products that, at the user level, give joy to users. It's a bit of a wishy washy philosophy for a company to take, but I madly respect Steve Jobs mindful take on customer experience - even if pros and experts feel at times peeved by the consumer first experience.

EDIT AGAIN:
I think this video encapsulates this dilemma with critics Apple has had for ages...


And this one sums up Apple's (Jobs') aesthetic/experience priorities...

Fascinating stuff...

 

[jhoelter]

My APMs spent last night getting stretched out by some books.

In the interest of sharing some good music, here is some electronic music that I think is really engaging to listen to on the APM:

CloZee - Amazonia



A$AP Ferg - New Level (Eprom Remix)
(careful, this one is heavy)



Flume - Spring (w/EPROM) (track 17)

 

[tkddans]

.


Nice. Was also interested in comments, and saw this one

'
HokeyBear
This was actually a fairly disastrous response from Steve Jobs that really hurt the company. This was 1997, more than a decade before the iPhone, and the Apple Macintosh (the company's sole product) was in bad shape. The questioner here was referring to the fact that Apple had just pulled the plug on support for OpenDoc, a cross-platform software framework for creating complex documents. Many developers (such as the questioner) had devoted years to the OpenDoc technology and made a livelihood developing applications for it since 1992, and thought Jobs abruptly dropped the technology without good reason. The questioner was asking, dude, why did you pull it? Jobs' response was basically, tough crap, no answer. Developers learned that technologies that were sacred to Apple one year could be dropped the next without cause or warning, so many devs concluded the investment wasn't worth it and abandoned the Macintosh platform in droves. The market share for the Macintosh would drop by more than 50% over the next two years as the (few) remaining developers who were loyal to the Macintosh platform fled to the greener pastures of Windows. People look at this response with rose colored glasses because of what Apple would become many, many years later, but this was actually a very poor way to respond to a legit question (although posed angrily) from the type of developers that Apple really needed to keep happy.

'

Yea I saw that comment too. Jobs seemed to, along with those leading Apple, focus on their own goals while disregarding others. For better or for worse with their relations with developers, that's kind of how they seem to maintain focus on what they envision user experience to be.

 

[angelom]

Marketing only and celebrities using Apple products isn't sufficient for success of a company for long period of time. If the products aren't good, the reality is the consumers eventually knowing this soon or later.

--Is a reality that Apple making very good products.
--Is a reality that is many, many, MANY Apple fanboys (youtube is full of this even when many videos are hiding like 'objective' reviews).
--Is a reality that is many, many Apple haters too (and in audio forums more probably).
--Is a reality Apple having probably the best (or one of the best) customer service in the world where, if you needing, you can quickly speaking with a real person and not only they giving you a link for reading or necessary sending email for asking about your problem (this is more important than people know!). Today Apple is offering telephone support for all products even if you don't having Apple Care or the device is out of warranty (this is recent change and very positive).

My opinion is that in this thread is often some not very good things about the APM that people are ignoring or not mentioning because more people than not really wanting liking this product (I think, for example, that the integration with other Apple products is often little exaggeration about the real benefits). I already speaking of the excellent features and not so good of the APM (for me) so I'm not repeating this comments.

 

[tinyman392]

Marketing only and celebrities using Apple products isn't sufficient for success of a company for long period of time. If the products aren't good, the reality is the consumers eventually knowing this soon or later.

--Is a reality that Apple making very good products.
--Is a reality that is many, many, MANY Apple fanboys (youtube is full of this even when many videos are hiding like 'objective' reviews).
--Is a reality that is many, many Apple haters too (and in audio forums more probably).
--Is a reality Apple having probably the best (or one of the best) customer service in the world where, if you needing, you can quickly speaking with a real person and not only they giving you a link for reading or necessary sending email for asking about your problem (this is more important than people know!). Today Apple is offering telephone support for all products even if you don't having Apple Care or the device is out of warranty (this is recent change and very positive).

My opinion is that in this thread is often some not very good things about the APM that people are ignoring or not mentioning because more people than not really wanting liking this product (I think, for example, that the integration with other Apple products is often little exaggeration about the real benefits). I already speaking of the excellent features and not so good of the APM (for me) so I'm not repeating this comments.

Switching between Apple devices has actually come in great use for conference calls. These were always part of my work life (collaborators from east coast to west coast), but even more now since COVID has happened. I could go from listening on my iPhone to connecting to my personal laptop to make the call, or my work laptop if I'm in the office. Then switch over to the iPad to watch a video afterwards. If you have Apple TV, the feature could be useful as well. With the automatic switching built in (which I admit is imperfect), you sometimes don't even need to tell the device to connect to the headphones as it just does it automatically. Or if you're on an airplane switching between your iPhone and iPad (music/video) while still remembering the laptop that you'll use for conference calls later (APP use when COVID wasn't a thing and I was on work travel).

To be honest, it's more of a convenience thing than anything else. Could I go about using another BT headphone that has 1 or 2 simultaneous connections? Sure, it'll be annoying, but I can make it work. I kind of use the analogy of unlocking your phone with facial recognition or fingerprint. Sure, you can unlock your phone with your passcode/swipecode, but it's really annoying to have to do that when the quicker facial recognition or fingerprint sensor fail. Or if you have a watch/smartwatch, checking the time when you forget your watch/smartwatch; you won't die by pulling your phone out, but it's a lot more inconvenient and annoying.

This only works well if you're in the Apple ecosystem; if you've got Android or Windows devices, this won't work at all and will probably be more of a hassle.

 

[angelom]

Switching between Apple devices has actually come in great use for conference calls. These were always part of my work life (collaborators from east coast to west coast), but even more now since COVID has happened. I could go from listening on my iPhone to connecting to my personal laptop to make the call, or my work laptop if I'm in the office. Then switch over to the iPad to watch a video afterwards. If you have Apple TV, the feature could be useful as well. With the automatic switching built in (which I admit is imperfect), you sometimes don't even need to tell the device to connect to the headphones as it just does it automatically.

To be honest, it's more of a convenience thing than anything else. Could I go about using another BT headphone that has 1 or 2 simultaneous connections? Sure, it'll be annoying, but I can make it work. I kind of use the analogy of unlocking your phone with facial recognition or fingerprint. Sure, you can unlock your phone with your passcode/swipecode, but it's really annoying to have to do that when the quicker facial recognition or fingerprint sensor fail. Or if you have a watch/smartwatch, checking the time when you forget your watch/smartwatch; you won't die by pulling your phone out, but it's a lot more inconvenient and annoying.

This only works well if you're in the Apple ecosystem; if you've got Android or Windows devices, this won't work at all and will probably be more of a hassle.

I know very, very well the benefits of this integration (I have iPhone, iPad, MacBook Pro, apple watch and apple TV, I using zoom, skype, whatsapp, making telephone calls, etc.) and I like this. I only saying that this integration, and the benefits, sometimes is really exaggeration when some people mentioning this, almost like your life is really changing. More convenient? Yes. Changing your life? NO. (Please give real comfort, no heat/sweat (real leather earpads like some people anticipating) and real portability AND little better sound instead of 'great' integration with apple ecosystem.

 

[tinyman392]

I know very, very well the benefits of this integration (I have iPhone, iPad, MacBook Pro, apple watch and apple TV) and I like this. I only saying that this integration, and the benefits, sometimes is really exaggeration when some people mentioning this, almost like your life is really changing. More convenient? Yes. Changing your life? NO. (Please give real comfort, no heat/sweat (real leather earpads like some people anticipating) and real portability instead of 'great' integration with apple ecosystem.

I'm going to be honest. If they didn't have this feature, I wouldn't be using the headphones for conference calls at all... Or watching videos... Actually, much of the value I see in them would be lost. The sole reason why I kept the OG AirPods was for conference calls. The APP was kept because it sounded good enough while being able to do exactly what I said above. If not for that, I have a ton of headphones that sound better than it that would be just as useful at isolating, sound, call quality, etc. while remaining convenient to connected to all my devices. To be honest, I'd probably not be using BT headphones for these use cases at all since a wire worked much better for switching between devices (not a burden to switch between 3-4 devices). Convenience is underestimated as a feature altogether. I don't use my Mobius anymore because of the inconvenience it offers with the entire dance I have to do to start using them (power on, turn off 3D mode, set the EQ how I like it...); there is an update for them to fix this, but I can't update them without a Windows computer.

 

[SparkOnShore]

Every product have issues. Every.
But why it is Apple who gets all the attention because of issues?

because we are talking Apple here. If I was in a Sony forum I would talk about their problems. And because I replied with my post to a blinded fanboy who believes that all Apple is perfect when it is clearly not. When someone says that Apple has a rigorous quality testing, which is a purely unfounded statement since they themselves accept and recall products, I need to reply in order to bring the necessary balance in the discussion.

 

[angelom]

Convenience is underestimated as a feature altogether.

For you the convenience is 'underestimated", for me is exaggeration (for majority of normal users). For me the normal AirPods (AP) is almost necessity, many more than APP or APM, and this is why I saying before that the AP is a genius product by Apple (and I think the sales numbers of this product is proving this. Is a reason for this).