[Telstar]

Quote:

 but with headphones there is the problem that the treble is much more forward than speakers.

That's the HP fault.

 

[nigeljames]

Quote:

Kingwa isn't kidding when he says "neutral" - M6 and Ref 7.1 driving HE-6 just doesn't hold back with bad recordings and lets it all through full force.  I think this is probably great for a pre-amp, but with headphones there is the problem that the treble is much more forward than speakers.  A lot of music is mastered on speakers, so when played back over headphones it will often sound bright.  For me though my Ref 7.1 M6 and HE-6 sounds incredible with 90% of material, but you do have to carefully select every component to avoid adding brightness or removing body.

 
No issues with the treble on my HE6's using the NFB-7\Master-6. In fact I would not mind a bit more

 

[drez]

Quote:

That's the HP fault.

 
I tend to disagree - most records from EMI, Deutsche Grammophon sound incredible, but any 90's recording from DECCA - not so good.  I mean one could use a headphone like LCD-3 which naturally tries to emulate speaker listening by shelving treble but to me this is trading transparency on 90% of recordings for easy listening on 10% of recordings.

 

[Telstar]

Quote:

I tend to disagree - most records from EMI, Deutsche Grammophon sound incredible, but any 90's recording from DECCA - not so good.  I mean one could use a headphone like LCD-3 which naturally tries to emulate speaker listening by shelving treble but to me this is trading transparency on 90% of recordings for easy listening on 10% of recordings.

HF emphasis is fake transparency. I'm not referring to a particular HP.

 

[gpoutakidis]

Hey Everyone in Australia and New Zealand,
 
just letting you know we have received the Reference 10.2 and it is available in store for Audition
 

 
[size=medium]Kind Regards,[/size]
 
[size=medium]George Poutakidis[/size]
 
[size=medium]Tel  +613 9810 2999[/size]
 

 
 
[size=medium]Email:[/size] [size=medium]george@addictedtoaudio.com.au[/size]
[size=medium]Web:[/size]   [size=medium]www.addictedtoaudio.com.au[/size]
[size=medium]www.facebook.com/AddictedtoAudio[/size]

 

[doobooloo]

George -
 
How do you think the Ref 10's DAC section compares to that of the Ref 7.1? On ACSS output as well as XLR? Just curious how the 4-chip implementation compares to the all-out 8-chip implementation of the 7.1. Would love to hear what you think... Thanks!

 

[milosz]

Hmmm- if I understand the circuit correctly, the 8-chip Ref 7 would have distortion and noise products 3 dB lower than the Ref 10 which uses 4 PCM1704's (all other things being equal.)  Since the noise / distortion is already down about 80 dB  (or possibly even lower) I'm curious to know if listeners report being able to hear the difference.  Doesn't seem like a difference in distortion from -90 dB to -93 is very significant.  Curious to see if people hear that difference.

 

[tme110]

the ref-5 also had 4 chips so you could get info from that as well.
 

 

[ceausuc]

How about the Wolfson (NFB) version? Anyone heard that one? At 1.5K seems (to me) more interesting than the REF10 which at 2K has more competition from separate components (DAC+AMP). These offer more upgrade flexibility and possibly better value. For instance some people consider the Octave a better DAC than the Ref7...

 

[milosz]

Quote:

How about the Wolfson (NFB) version? Anyone heard that one? At 1.5K seems (to me) more interesting than the REF10 which at 2K has more competition from separate components (DAC+AMP). These offer more upgrade flexibility and possibly better value. For instance some people consider the Octave a better DAC than the Ref7...

There are a number of Audio-Gd DACs based on Wolfson chips, all of the recent ones are no-feedback designs.
 
For example I have an Audio-Gd NFB-2  which is based on a pair of WM8741 which is a top-grade Wolfson DAC. http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB-2/NFB2EN.htm
 
Which Audio-Gd model are you thinking of?
--------------------
 
I just read about the Metrum NOS Octave DAC, that seems REALLY interesting!  A quad R/2R DAC for about $900 US. The power supplies are not as fanatical as the Audio-Gd units, I wonder if that lets them down a little.  Maybe not, as Metrum says on their web site that the DAC chips used have their own on-chip voltage regulators, so it really wouldn't matter what you were feeding them with as long as they had plenty of current and fairly low impedance.  The Octave has NO output buffers- the DAC chips feed the output jacks. Fascinating. The 6moons review said that the Octave had no problem driving anything they tried with it, they could see no flaws in this approach. Think about it- a transparent, carefully designed output buffer is GOOD, but it MUST color the sound, even if only a teeny tiny bit.  NO output buffer - if feasible- would mean one extra stage is avoided altogether.  Interesting.  --- NO BALANCED OUTPUTS, THOUGH.  ---   Seems odd, given there are 4 DACs in it. A balanced out seems a no-brainer.
 
Anyone here ever listen to the Octave? http://www.nosminidac.nl/Octave_English.html

 

[ceausuc]

Quote:

There are a number of Audio-Gd DACs based on Wolfson chips, all of the recent ones are no-feedback designs.
 
For example I have an Audio-Gd NFB-2  which is based on a pair of WM8741 which is a top-grade Wolfson DAC. http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB-2/NFB2EN.htm
 
Which model are you thinking of?

I'm talking about the NFB-20.2. Here: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB20/NFB20EN.htm
Looks the same as REF only using Wolfson chips.And even this one has serious competition from Youlong and Shiit combos...

 

[tim3320070]

The DSP-1 in the Ref-10 is a big deal IMO over the 20.

 

[Gwarmi]

Quote:

George -
 
How do you think the Ref 10's DAC section compares to that of the Ref 7.1? On ACSS output as well as XLR? Just curious how the 4-chip implementation compares to the all-out 8-chip implementation of the 7.1. Would love to hear what you think... Thanks!

 
 I popped in to see George just yesterday and enjoyed myself immensely with this unit - not to sound too general but potential buyers should see the Reference 10.2
 as an excellent closed system balanced DAC and Amp - lining it out via the Pre Amp button to either the Sugden Masterclass or Ray Samuels Dark Star did not produce
 the best sound - it did sound best via the internal 4pin.

 

[tme110]

Quote:

The DSP-1 in the Ref-10 is a big deal IMO over the 20.

Does the DSP mean you wouldnt need to use the DI?

 

[tim3320070]

Quote:

Does the DSP mean you wouldnt need to use the DI?

Only your experience will determine that. However, I am buying the DI-DSP (coming soon) for my Ref-8 to confirm the need for it, or lack thereof.