[Tilpo]

Hi! Finally my first post after lurking for a long month

I currently have a HD650 hooked up to a LD MKIV SE (I ordered a regular one but David gave me a SE because he ran out of the tubes for the regular one. THANK YOU DAVID!), and a Asus ST as source, which I find a great combination.
But now I have the hunger for better, and I have heard that the HD 650's a lot better when balanced. Hence I want to buy a balanced amp, cables and DAC. Though the last two will come last; amp first.

What I want is a balanced amp in the 500-800$ price range (not a much above that since I don't earn all that much).
Preferably a tube amp, as I love the tube sound. I was lucky enough to test similarly priced preamps both SS and tube, but I preferred the warmth of the tube amps.
Nonetheless I am still open to SS if they really are a lot better than tube alternatives.

My current preference lies with the LD MKVI+, as I'm familiar with the Little Dot brand now and I just love what I've seen so far.

I'd love to hear what you think

(I'm sorry if this is just another duplicate threat, but I couldn't find specifically what I was looking for)

 

[cswann1]

Welcome to Head Fi !!  You may find the thread linked below helpful.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/535861/the-list-balanced-amps-under-1-000-aka-amps-not-to-buy

 

[Tilpo]

Hmm I understand from that thread that with my budget it might be wiser to look at SE's.

Let's change the topic to
"Darvoice 337 Vs. Little Dot MKVI+ Vs. Woo Audio WA6" or any sub-800$ tube amp.

I have heard a lot of good things about all three. I think the preference of the general public leans more towards the 337, but I would like to know the pro's and cons of each.

Recabling and a balanced DAC is not an issue as I need to do both anyway. Don't think balanced DAC's are better or worse in my target 400$ range.
Also, should I maybe reallocate my budget to a better DAC, but a less good amp?

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

Hmm I understand from that thread that with my budget it might be wiser to look at SE's.

Let's change the topic to
"Darvoice 337 Vs. Little Dot MKVI+ Vs. Woo Audio WA6" or any sub-800$ tube amp.

I have heard a lot of good things about all three. I think the preference of the general public leans more towards the 337, but I would like to know the pro's and cons of each.

Recabling and a balanced DAC is not an issue as I need to do both anyway. Don't think balanced DAC's are better or worse in my target 400$ range.
Also, should I maybe reallocate my budget to a better DAC, but a less good amp?

 

Well, if you're willing to forgo tubes by getting an amp at a much lower price, then there's actually a few portable balanced amps out there.  Ray Samuels Audio has two, the $650 SR-71B and the $475 Protector.  iBasso also has two, the $229 PB1 and the $325 PB2.  iBasso also has a $39 HD 650 cable re-terminated with the Hirose connector their amps use, and also a portable balanced DAC - the $219 DB1 - which takes USB, coaxial, and optical input.
 
I have the PB1 and the Hirose-terminated cable, which I use with my Rockboxed Clip+ and HD 600.  You wouldn't think a portable source could possibly be that good.

 

[chromium]

You are still looking for a tube one like MK IV se?

 

[desktophifi]

A SS amp such as the Burson HA-160 does a good job with the 650's.  

 

[Tilpo]

You are still looking for a tube one like MK IV se?

Well my preference lies with tube amps, but I'm willing to look into SS alternatives if they really are a lot better.
Also it doesn't have to be a balanced amp either, I simply heard that balanced gear did a great job on the HD 650's. And as cswann1's post perhaps pointed out: it might be wise to consider non-balanced amps in that price range.
I'm just hear to get the best sound withing my budget

[quote='BlackbeardBen] Well, if you're willing to forgo tubes by getting an amp at a much lower price, then there's actually a few portable balanced amps out there.[/quote]

Tubes aren't that much more expensive relative to their sound quality, are they? Or are you just talking about balanced tube amps?
Like I said, it doesn't have to be balanced, and as was pointed out to me, it probably shouldn't be balanced in this price range.

 

[flaming_june]

I think the best case scenario for the least amount spent is either the ref5/phoenix combo or the nfb10.  Otherwise why would you get a balanced little dot with a st or se dac.  As for tubes, yeah, they're expensive if you're buying the good ones.  Best just stick with A, spending a lot in source components, B, better audio quality and music.

 

[milosz]

The Audio-Gd NFB10, in either -ES or -WM form, is a pretty good buy on a very good DAC with a very good balanced amp. Price is under $800 I believe.  (I have an NFB-10ES as well as a balanced Beta 22.  The Beta costs more, and you have to build it.)
 
-Class A output stage
-All discrete (no integrated circuit opamps which some find less than hi-rez)
-Good power supply (oversized with a capacity of about 80 watts)
-Well built, quality parts
-At least 4 watts available, can drive most any headphone
-Relay/resistor precision attenuator volume control operates in current mode ACSS circuit, in theory a better sounding way to do a volume control than using a pot to attenuate level
-No overall negative feedback
 
The DAC is either dual Wolfson 8740 or an ESS Sabre ES9018 which averages 4 separate DACs per channel to reduce nonlinearity.  Your choice for which DAC you want.
 
Of course, this is solid state; you may wish a tube design, in which case never mind.  There are many tube balanced amps out there, but I am not terribly familiar with them.

 

[Tilpo]

I'd love a DIY amp, but my soldering skills are abominable and I have never done a DIY so I won't take the risk of messing it up.
Maybe I'll do one at some point or another, but then an amp of $100-200 seems more applicable.

Furthermore I prefer not to get amp/dac combos as I want to experiment with different components and I just don't like the idea of a combined DAC and AMP. But I'm willing to consider it if it's better than any $1200 matched amp + dac combination.

And as far as SS vs. Tubes go for me: I don't necessarily want great detail, I would like emotion and especially soundstage. Especially considering that I often listen to recordings which might be annoying on a too revealing system.

Perhaps I needed to lurk more before I started this thread...

 

[metalh3ad]

Quote:

Perhaps I needed to lurk more before I started this thread...

There are nice SS amps which do a good job with the 650's. As mentioned before, the HA-160 is well regarded for driving them. 
You'll find threads on that topic. 

 

[Uncle Erik]

Do your homework on what is truly balanced and what is not. A lot of "balanced" amps are simply single-ended amps with XLR jacks. Same goes for a lot of so-called "balanced" sources. Further, some of the biggest proponents of balancing are listening to single-ended gear.

Be careful.

"Balanced" has become a marketing buzzword. Do not assume that because something is balanced (whether it actually is or not) that it will outperform every single-ended amp.

Tubes are necessarily more expensive than solid state. Solid state doesn't need heavy iron in the power supply because it runs off much lower voltages. If you want high voltage, you have to pay for quality iron. Further, tubes generally require more casework and labor to wire, which increases cost. Tube amps should be built point-to-point, as well, for maximum reliability and repairability.

Also consider that a truly balanced amp is two amps. Double the cost and also double the points of failure. Component matching is more critical, as well, but you aren't going to get that on the cheap.

Do consider DIY. Soldering skills can always be improved. You'll be able to build pretty much any DIY design into a balanced amp, as well. If you balanced something like the Kurt Strain OTL (over at Headwize) you could pull off a genuinely balanced amp for $500 if you don't go crazy with boutique parts and casework. Likewise, you could buy two $200 Bottlehead Crack kits and balance those.

 

[Tilpo]

Thank you Uncle Erik, clear and detailed as always.

I think I might go for a DIY SS then. Seems like a fun project, and I know some people that could help me with the soldering.
Maybe I won't go balanced since it will take more money.

I'll start lurking the DIY forum and see whether anything good comes out of it.

Seems like you can never learn enough on this forum. And it also seems like my wallet cries a little with every new discovery concerning hi-fi.
Although DIY might actually save a little bit of money.

 

[jeffreyfranz]

Quote:

Do your homework on what is truly balanced and what is not. A lot of "balanced" amps are simply single-ended amps with XLR jacks. Same goes for a lot of so-called "balanced" sources. Further, some of the biggest proponents of balancing are listening to single-ended gear.

Be careful.

"Balanced" has become a marketing buzzword. Do not assume that because something is balanced (whether it actually is or not) that it will outperform every single-ended amp.

Tubes are necessarily more expensive than solid state. Solid state doesn't need heavy iron in the power supply because it runs off much lower voltages. If you want high voltage, you have to pay for quality iron. Further, tubes generally require more casework and labor to wire, which increases cost. Tube amps should be built point-to-point, as well, for maximum reliability and repairability.

Also consider that a truly balanced amp is two amps. Double the cost and also double the points of failure. Component matching is more critical, as well, but you aren't going to get that on the cheap.

Do consider DIY. Soldering skills can always be improved. You'll be able to build pretty much any DIY design into a balanced amp, as well. If you balanced something like the Kurt Strain OTL (over at Headwize) you could pull off a genuinely balanced amp for $500 if you don't go crazy with boutique parts and casework. Likewise, you could buy two $200 Bottlehead Crack kits and balance those.

All these points are excellent ones, and I agree to an extent. Be aware, however, that one of the great benefits of balanced drive is getting twice the voltage swing to your phones (and I think twice the slew rate, but I'm not so sure there).  You may well get more current to the voice coils, as well. With a HP like the HD 650, being able to really clamp down on the drivers might improve detail, clarity and "snap." I, too, have the HD 650 (along with the AKG K701 and a Grado), and I find it too dark and muted for my taste. I am thinking seriously about trying the PB1 or PB2 by ibasso, both balanced portables, in hopes of waking up the Sennheisers. On the other hand, many folks say that no amount of cable- or amp-swapping is going to change the basic character of a HP, but that wasn't really your question.  And remember, the Search Engine is your friend. Good luck. 

 

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

All these points are excellent ones, and I agree to an extent. Be aware, however, that one of the great benefits of balanced drive is getting twice the voltage swing to your phones (and I think twice the slew rate, but I'm not so sure there).  You may well get more current to the voice coils, as well. With a HP like the HD 650, being able to really clamp down on the drivers might improve detail, clarity and "snap." I, too, have the HD 650 (along with the AKG K701 and a Grado), and I find it too dark and muted for my taste. I am thinking seriously about trying the PB1 or PB2 by ibasso, both balanced portables, in hopes of waking up the Sennheisers. On the other hand, many folks say that no amount of cable- or amp-swapping is going to change the basic character of a HP, but that wasn't really your question.  And remember, the Search Engine is your friend. Good luck. 

 

That's only twice the voltage swing of the exact same amplifier running in single-ended mode.  In effect - if your amplifier is truly "balanced" - it is working exactly like a pair of bridged stereo amplifiers in the same case.  Like the Adcom GFA-1, for example.
 
A single-ended amplifier with a better, more powerful output stage can potentially outperform a balanced amplifier in all aspects - it really just comes down to the particular output stage design and devices.
 
Current is a similar story.  It's going to be the same with the same voltage swing, of course assuming you're not clipping.
 
That said, I do like the PB1 with my HD 600.  My Asgard never gets used anymore, although that is much a function of the lack of portability.