[tiagopinto]

Why are some people so resistant to the idea that there are some minor physical changes as a headphone driver wears in? I can't think of any other mechanical device that doesn't experience some sort of physical change after prolonged usage. Mechanical things wear in, aka are broken in, and then wear out after much use. Regarding headphones, I've noticed that the only ones that I notice a minor, yet still audible difference in are ones that use drivers with more traditional speaker like surrounds.

That all being said, "brain burn in" is also very real. Like in most other things in life, it isn't all of one, and none of the other. Few things are truly binary. There is definitely brain burn in, and also some physical burn in. The magnitude of the effect on sound of physical burn in seems to have some correlation to the type of driver used, and to the materials that a driver is composed of.

And no, I don't have extensive scientific data to back these statements up, or a tidy scientific study that I can hyperlink to. These are just my views, which were shaped by knowledge and logic, and reenforced by experience. Although I will admit that my ability to be so open minded about the concept of physical burn in was helped along by my being given the opportunity to compare my "burned in" example of the P9 to a freshly unboxed one back in 2017, and the same with my Elegia about 2 years ago.

Exactly. Thanks.

 

[tiagopinto]

Anyone got any thoughts on the PX8 wired? Hear much difference?

I can’t objectively answer your question but on both occasions, with the PX8, you’ll still be using the internal DAC and DSP. But I also think compressed bluetooth will be different from wired, if not by much.

I can drive my Aonic 50 passive and wired and it’s definitely different (better wired). It’s not negligible but still a forgettable difference.

I’m also very curious how the PX8 behave when comparing both options.

 

[tiagopinto]

So I was at a live concert yesterday. I was at the front of the venue, in front of the stage. At some point I had to go to the back for drinks and a fitting analogy hit me for the Bathys vs PX8 sound discussion which I just had to share.
The PX8 is the sound in front of the stage, while the Bathys is like being at the back getting drinks. In the front the music hits you in your face and grabs you by your troth while at the back it's all the more gentle, and you can hear everything better as it's not so much in your face and spread out a bit more evenly.

Very interesting description. Something everyone can physically feel.

Get your point. So for all of us who appreciate front row seats, PX8 is the way to go

I get your point but I actually don’t prefer front row seats at a concert. I prefer being right in front of the FOH mixer. I have extensive experience in live concerts and have found that slightly left to the FOH also compensates for the treble loss in my left ear as bass is more even and I can live with the mids being minutely off axis.

From the comments I’ve read, the PX8 are more intimate and the Bathys are more spacious. Overall, considering weight, looks and discarding the fact that the Bathys can be driven passively... I’d probably get the PX8.

 

[tiagopinto]

This! The OG PX had pads with rims so thin that it felt like I was strapping wine glasses to my head. And the P9 is a beautiful, ergonomic mess. Even after breaking them in to the point where they're literally breaking, they're still not comfortable enough for me to use for more than 30 minutes without taking short breaks.

I would love to see B&W take all that they've learned, and apply it to a new P9 S2. A wired headphone that keeps the incredible technical abilities of the OG P9, and combines them with the comfort and build of the PX8, with tuning inspired by a combination of the sound of the PX8 and P7W.

I would buy that sight unseen the moment I finished trying to explain to my wife why it would be worth whatever they would choose to charge for it, and why I NEED it...and then inevitably still ending up having to resort to the usual bribery that typically involves buying her an expensive purse or some other expensive designer label fashion accessory.

I haven’t quit explaining to my wife why I NEED a new pair of headphones (or another new pair of sneakers or a new bodyboard for that matter) but it’s close to being a lost battle.

I just tell her “Well, I did want an “Hermès” headphone but I can’t afford it, so I got this “Longchamp” headphone... just like that new bag you added to your collection... makes sense babe?”. I find it helps, sometimes, hehe.

 

[Denkmal]

I can’t objectively answer your question but on both occasions, with the PX8, you’ll still be using the internal DAC and DSP. But I also think compressed bluetooth will be different from wired, if not by much.

I can drive my Aonic 50 passive and wired and it’s definitely different (better wired). It’s not negligible but still a forgettable difference.

I’m also very curious how the PX8 behave when comparing both options.

I did compare the PX8 now with .flac files and:
1. Wireless AAC from Iphone 14
2. Wireless APT-X from MacBook Pro
3. Wired via USB-C from MacBook Pro & Ipad Pro
4. Wired via coax from MacBook Pro

The wireless mode (1) and how B&W (and Apple, of course) have implemented AAC is really, really good.
I found this better than (2) as for some reason APT-X did sound a bit flatter and less... warm? Not sure why and it might of course be my MacBook causing this.
The wired (3) via USB-C is marginally clearer in the treble, but not by much and not so much that I would bother with the cable for most of my useage.
Wired (4) via the 3,5mm plug is not great. However I have absolutely no use for this anyway.

So, I guess the conclusion is that for MY ears and with the type of music I typically listen to, AAC is perfectly fine - and after all, as I am an iPhone user this is great.

Music audited for this particular purpose, perhaps this give you some context to what I need in an headphone, and how bipolar my taste is:
Nils Lofgren - Keith don't go (acoustic live)
Lady Blackbird - Did somebody make a fool out of you
Led Zeppelin - Since I've been loving you
Michael Jackson - Thriller
Jeff Buckley - Lilac wine
Radiohead - Reckoner
Public Enemy - Harder than you think
Wing$ - Macklemore and Ryan Lewis

 

[Denkmal]

From the comments I’ve read, the PX8 are more intimate and the Bathys are more spacious. Overall, considering weight, looks and discarding the fact that the Bathys can be driven passively... I’d probably get the PX8.

Yes the PX8 is much more intimate, with what I feel is a nicer timbre and cozier mid range than the Bathys. Bathys, however, has a very open sound for what it is, and if you like the sense of crystal clear detail rather than a polite treble, this would perhaps be better. In any case, the PX8 is plenty detailed when needed, but you can also blast a dirty distorted electric guitar song on it without making your ears bleed.

 

[jthomp72]

Yes the PX8 is much more intimate, with what I feel is a nicer timbre and cozier mid range than the Bathys. Bathys, however, has a very open sound for what it is, and if you like the sense of crystal clear detail rather than a polite treble, this would perhaps be better. In any case, the PX8 is plenty detailed when needed, but you can also blast a dirty distorted electric guitar song on it without making your ears bleed.

That’s been my biggest complaint with the bathys…that treble gets harsh at high volumes…hell or even moderate volumes. I can blast the Px8 with no problems. That being said, you do lose a sense of space with the Px8 that song dependent you either love or hate.

 

[tiagopinto]

I did compare the PX8 now with .flac files and:
1. Wireless AAC from Iphone 14
2. Wireless APT-X from MacBook Pro
3. Wired via USB-C from MacBook Pro & Ipad Pro
4. Wired via coax from MacBook Pro

The wireless mode (1) and how B&W (and Apple, of course) have implemented AAC is really, really good.
I found this better than (2) as for some reason APT-X did sound a bit flatter and less... warm? Not sure why and it might of course be my MacBook causing this.
The wired (3) via USB-C is marginally clearer in the treble, but not by much and not so much that I would bother with the cable for most of my useage.
Wired (4) via the 3,5mm plug is not great. However I have absolutely no use for this anyway.

So, I guess the conclusion is that for MY ears and with the type of music I typically listen to, AAC is perfectly fine - and after all, as I am an iPhone user this is great.

Music audited for this particular purpose, perhaps this give you some context to what I need in an headphone, and how bipolar my taste is:
Nils Lofgren - Keith don't go (acoustic live)
Lady Blackbird - Did somebody make a fool out of you
Led Zeppelin - Since I've been loving you
Michael Jackson - Thriller
Jeff Buckley - Lilac wine
Radiohead - Reckoner
Public Enemy - Harder than you think
Wing$ - Macklemore and Ryan Lewis

Thanks for the breakdown. This must be a very engaging headphone.

Very interesting music choice. I’m also very eclectic, from Tom Jobim to System of a Down or Ryo Fukui to Massive Attack. I have no other way of testing headphones or just listening to music.

 

[ricthaman]

For anybody who wants to see the inside of the PX8 in detail; here's an expansive set of pictures made for the goal of certifications.

 

[Sonic Defender]

I think after Xmas I will pick-up a PX8 so I'll get to join in on the sound impressions side of things. But not to be too much of a Negative Nelly, but I have read from at least two members who acknowledge brain acclimation, but also make the claim that mechanical burn-in happens for a fact. What evidence do you people have of that? Have you mechanically and metallurgically disassembled and tested the driver before and after or are you just assuming these changes happen because somebody somewhere else introduced the idea and sounded really convincing? Or does it just seem to be so common sense that it just has to happen?

I am always shocked at how certain people can be of phenomena that would be so very, very nuanced and almost impossible to quantify in any reliable or meaningful way. And even if there were some kind of infinitesimal change in material or mechanical system such as is being proposed, for it to reach audibility would be a major issue, let alone to result in the changes typically described by people like "... the bass really setlled in ... the treble became much more even ..." Those are absolutely huge changes, not small, if they become audible you are now making a very significant claim, which transitively means you are suggesting that these designs are so flawed that the engineers couldn't even make a headphone system that didn't become critically altered in a few hundred hours of use.

I am not so arrogant as to say I know for a fact that these things could never occur, but people have no proof, they just make unsubstantiated claims. That isn't evidence at all, it is simply opinion. Fine, everyone has opinions, I do, probably too many of them, no problem, but at least be clear when you make claims that you accept the limits of your knowledge and if you haven't tested your headphone the way you would need to determine if substantial mechanical burn-in occurred, then limit your claim to not be presenting facts, but rather opinion.

On the flip side we have mountains and mountains of scientific inquiry into the adaptability of our sensory brain so that explanation has been scientifically vetted.

 

[Soundizer]

I think after Xmas I will pick-up a PX8 so I'll get to join in on the sound impressions side of things. But not to be too much of a Negative Nelly, but I have read from at least two members who acknowledge brain acclimation, but also make the claim that mechanical burn-in happens for a fact. What evidence do you people have of that? Have you mechanically and metallurgically disassembled and tested the driver before and after or are you just assuming these changes happen because somebody somewhere else introduced the idea and sounded really convincing? Or does it just seem to be so common sense that it just has to happen?

I am always shocked at how certain people can be of phenomena that would be so very, very nuanced and almost impossible to quantify in any reliable or meaningful way. And even if there were some kind of infinitesimal change in material or mechanical system such as is being proposed, for it to reach audibility would be a major issue, let alone to result in the changes typically described by people like "... the bass really setlled in ... the treble became much more even ..." Those are absolutely huge changes, not small, if they become audible you are now making a very significant claim, which transitively means you are suggesting that these designs are so flawed that the engineers couldn't even make a headphone system that didn't become critically altered in a few hundred hours of use.

I am not so arrogant as to say I know for a fact that these things could never occur, but people have no proof, they just make unsubstantiated claims. That isn't evidence at all, it is simply opinion. Fine, everyone has opinions, I do, probably too many of them, no problem, but at least be clear when you make claims that you accept the limits of your knowledge and if you haven't tested your headphone the way you would need to determine if substantial mechanical burn-in occurred, then limit your claim to not be presenting facts, but rather opinion.

On the flip side we have mountains and mountains of scientific inquiry into the adaptability of our sensory brain so that explanation has been scientifically vetted.

We don’t have to test mechanical burn in when the actual manufacturers to include Focal and Audioquest(Audioquest Nighthawk HP’s), issue statements about burn in importance. Although Burn in is a term they don’t use specifically. Run time is what Focal call it.

 

[angelom]

I think after Xmas I will pick-up a PX8 so I'll get to join in on the sound impressions side of things. But not to be too much of a Negative Nelly, but I have read from at least two members who acknowledge brain acclimation, but also make the claim that mechanical burn-in happens for a fact. What evidence do you people have of that? Have you mechanically and metallurgically disassembled and tested the driver before and after or are you just assuming these changes happen because somebody somewhere else introduced the idea and sounded really convincing? Or does it just seem to be so common sense that it just has to happen?

I am always shocked at how certain people can be of phenomena that would be so very, very nuanced and almost impossible to quantify in any reliable or meaningful way. And even if there were some kind of infinitesimal change in material or mechanical system such as is being proposed, for it to reach audibility would be a major issue, let alone to result in the changes typically described by people like "... the bass really setlled in ... the treble became much more even ..." Those are absolutely huge changes, not small, if they become audible you are now making a very significant claim, which transitively means you are suggesting that these designs are so flawed that the engineers couldn't even make a headphone system that didn't become critically altered in a few hundred hours of use.

I am not so arrogant as to say I know for a fact that these things could never occur, but people have no proof, they just make unsubstantiated claims. That isn't evidence at all, it is simply opinion. Fine, everyone has opinions, I do, probably too many of them, no problem, but at least be clear when you make claims that you accept the limits of your knowledge and if you haven't tested your headphone the way you would need to determine if substantial mechanical burn-in occurred, then limit your claim to not be presenting facts, but rather opinion.

On the flip side we have mountains and mountains of scientific inquiry into the adaptability of our sensory brain so that explanation has been scientifically vetted.

Tyll doing measurements of several headphones some years ago for testing scientifically if mechanical burn-in is real or not. He saying that with his measurements no changes happening and in the rare instances with changes, this changes are so, so small that the ear can't really hearing this differences.

We don’t have to test mechanical burn in when the actual manufacturers to include Focal and Audioquest(Audioquest Nighthawk HP’s), issue statements about burn in importance. Although Burn in is a term they don’t use specifically. Run time is what Focal call it.

Is also very possible that the manufacturer is using this 'advice' so that the consumer's ears are becoming accustom to the new sound. Our ears becoming accustom to any earphone or headphone very quickly and our brains compensating for missing frequencies or peaks and dips in FR. You listen more time and even bad earphones and headphones are sounding very good!

 

[tiagopinto]

I think after Xmas I will pick-up a PX8 so I'll get to join in on the sound impressions side of things. But not to be too much of a Negative Nelly, but I have read from at least two members who acknowledge brain acclimation, but also make the claim that mechanical burn-in happens for a fact. What evidence do you people have of that? Have you mechanically and metallurgically disassembled and tested the driver before and after or are you just assuming these changes happen because somebody somewhere else introduced the idea and sounded really convincing? Or does it just seem to be so common sense that it just has to happen?

I am always shocked at how certain people can be of phenomena that would be so very, very nuanced and almost impossible to quantify in any reliable or meaningful way. And even if there were some kind of infinitesimal change in material or mechanical system such as is being proposed, for it to reach audibility would be a major issue, let alone to result in the changes typically described by people like "... the bass really setlled in ... the treble became much more even ..." Those are absolutely huge changes, not small, if they become audible you are now making a very significant claim, which transitively means you are suggesting that these designs are so flawed that the engineers couldn't even make a headphone system that didn't become critically altered in a few hundred hours of use.

I am not so arrogant as to say I know for a fact that these things could never occur, but people have no proof, they just make unsubstantiated claims. That isn't evidence at all, it is simply opinion. Fine, everyone has opinions, I do, probably too many of them, no problem, but at least be clear when you make claims that you accept the limits of your knowledge and if you haven't tested your headphone the way you would need to determine if substantial mechanical burn-in occurred, then limit your claim to not be presenting facts, but rather opinion.

On the flip side we have mountains and mountains of scientific inquiry into the adaptability of our sensory brain so that explanation has been scientifically vetted.

When I read this post and glanced at how many times you’ve posted in this forum, I thought “this guy does have a lot of opinions”. Which is good, don’t get me wrong.

But I must be a “sonic defender” here (pun intended) and state “I hear a difference in headphones sound signature from new to 72h play time, checking in every 24h.” It’s not an opinion. Those are my ears. Whoever else’s may differ. It’s my fact.

I have no means to test this, sorry.

Many people dive into tip or cable rolling in IEM’s, I don’t. But my Rai Solo do sound different with the stock cable to with a Tripowin C8. They just do. But I digress.

Physical burn in, associated to brain acclimation, of course, is a thing. I hear it. But I respect your opinion. Thanks.

Like you, I’m wishing to get the PX8. If I do, I’ll try and objectively post my “opinions” here.

Cheers!

 

[mainguy]

On the topic of burn-in, which I have no personal opinion on, DMS did an actual test and showed a marked change in FR. He changed the pads back to new ones to measure the curve, to ensure pad break in wasn't the course.

Is this true of every pair of headphones? Impossible to say. It certainly seems to have happened here.

 

[nunomeneses]

I got the Bathys and the PX8 (since a few days) and I cannot make up my mind which one to choose. I am no audiophile, but I do do a lot of active listening (I am no good at doing two things at the same time) and 90% of my music is classical. I listen at my desk/lazy chair via my macbook so am fine with a cable, but I do want noise cancelling to block the noisy family out and transparency mode for when I want to listen to music and still be ‘available’.

Bathys pros: wired sound is great. It might be just 10-20% better than BT but it's worth it. Detailed, clear. Might EQ the bass up a little and lower the treble a touch. Sounds better (clearer, detailed) than PX8 for most classical music such as harp, choral, Bach. Nice big ear cups. Music sounds wider.

Bathys cons: after 30 mins the top of my head starts hurting. The transparency mode is unusable for listening to music as there is so much white noise, it's awful. In dac mode the balance goes off all the time, needed a balance-lock app to fix it. Stravinsky sounds better on the PX8. Quite thumpy when walking.

PX8 pros: much, much more comfortable on top of head. Buttons much easier to use and better quality. Better BT connectivity. Transparency mode much better and usable. Less thumping when walking. Gorgeous warm, full and 'nearby' sound.

PX8 cons: ear cups a bit small and gets a little uncomfortable after a while. Wired mode hardly makes a difference, so no high-res mode. Slightly less clear in choral and harp music, but great for Stravinsky. I can hear my heart-beat which is slightly annoying.

I can only keep one... and I have no idea which one. The Bathys is clearer and has more detail, especially in DAC mode, so I should like it better, but I am being swayed by the lovely warm timbre and easier-listening of the PX8. Wish I could merge them. Bathys' pain on the head is a thing, but the great sound quality counts too (maybe I can find some foam pads or something). PX8 seems easier to use and has a very persuasive sound.

I’m with you! I can only keep one and I only had a few hours yesterday listening. But the head pain for me is not a problem on bathys.

I’m overwhelmed by the size of bathys compared to px8 but that’s not a problem for me .

I will have to listen more and more over the weekend so I can have better sense for what I want. But just for first impressions I can say that I’m leaning towards bathys, not having the raw force of px8 they are still energetic sounding headphones. Not extreme but engaging nonetheless….

Have to listen… it’s hard for me these days since I’m full of work… and can’t hear at work since I’m a Event AV tech so I do audio at work so can’t hear them