[16610]

Friends,

I'm about to pull the trigger on a high end open headphone that's on my current shortlist. In order to drive those 300+ ohm cans, I need a decent AMP and I think this one will do the job:

http://www.schiit.com/products/valhalla-2

Till this stage, nothing thrilling. But I have only digital files. No LP's unfortunately. In fact I only have CD's that I rip into flac. These files are on my laptop.

So this means I need a DAC to feed the AMP. Right? Welcome to the world of DACs, portable DACs, DAC+AMP in 1...

So how weird is it to buy a DAC and AMP separately? And to what extend can a DAC be a bottleneck between the AMP and de digital file? In terms of sound quality.

Since my music collection is only digital, should I still buy these 2 products separately or should I buy a DAC+AMP in 1? Does it makes sense to connect a dragon fly red to a headphone AMP like the Valhalla 2?

Thanks

 

[buke9]

What cans are you trying to drive?

 

[16610]

I am thinking about the DT1990 Pro 250ohm. But the setup should be versatile as I might get crazy and buy something close to the HD800

 

[buke9]

I have not heard the 1990's but do have the 800's . Can not give you differences of the two.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So how weird is it to buy a DAC and amp separately?

What do you mean, you'll buy one first and then the other one later? What will you hook up the headphone amp to until you get the DAC?

And to what extend can a DAC be a bottleneck between the AMP and de digital file?

You'd have to be using a really crappy DAC for there to be any really drastic differences. Of course, to some people, a little improvement in imaging is big enough for them to spend money.

 

[obobskivich]

Friends,

I'm about to pull the trigger on a high end open headphone that's on my current shortlist. In order to drive those 300+ ohm cans, I need a decent AMP and I think this one will do the job:

http://www.schiit.com/products/valhalla-2

Till this stage, nothing thrilling.

Never owned/used that specific amp (looks fine on paper though, but what's that really worth?), but yes I'd generally agree with having an amp for higher impedance cans if your source is ultimately a PC (very few of them are equipped to drive high-z loads like that).

But I have only digital files. No LP's unfortunately (new generation). In fact I only have CD's that I rip into flac. These files are on my laptop.

So this means I need a DAC to feed the AMP. Right? So welcome in the world of DACs, portable DACs, DAC+AMP in 1...

Correct. The amplifier you linked only takes analog audio in, so you'll need some way to get an analog output and send that into it. Alternatively there are more combination devices that can connect to digital audio (e.g. S/PDIF) or directly to a PC (e.g. USB) and provide an amplifier headphone output, if you need something more compact.

So how weird is it to buy a DAC and amp separately?

Do you mean "separately" as-in having the amplifier you linked (or one like it) along with a DAC, or do you mean purchasing one component now and waiting for some period of time to buy the other? Overall I'd say "not very weird" to either, but some things to think about:

- If you do the two-box thing, they will need to be plugged into each other (so get appropriate cables for that), both will need power (more wires and maybe you need to consider a power strip if you've got computer + all that), and it will take up more space. None of these are explicitly "negatives" just considerations.

- If you're doing the "staggered purchasing" - buy the amp first. You can't hook your headphones up to the output of a straight DAC (because its just line level analog audio), so it'd be pretty useless without the amplifier.

And to what extend can a DAC be a bottleneck between the AMP and de digital file? In terms of sound quality.

Not significantly. The biggest bottlenecks, in rough order from worst to least (and this isn't proportionally relative):

- Headphones or speakers
- *Room acoustics/placement (for speakers only)
- Source material quality (you've said you're ripping CDs to flac, so unless its really awfully recorded/mastered stuff, it shouldn't be a big issue, but if you were going from 128k mp3s or something that'd certainly be an issue)
- Amplifier driving said headphones or speakers
- Digital playback device
- Cables

Overall the soundcard in your computer may even be good enough quality just to provide the 2ch line source for the amplifier. Basically as long as the output is clean (e.g. no noise/awful audible distortion (things like buzzing, hissing, etc)) it should be generally acceptable. That isn't to say that fancier components don't sound better, but there is certainly a point of diminishing returns that is reached fairly quickly with digital playback hardware. I'd say the majority of your budget should go into the cans themselves, and the next biggest item should be the amplifier; worry about the DAC last.

Since my music collection is only digital, should I still buy these 2 products separately or should I buy a DAC+AMP in 1? Does it makes sense to connect a dragon fly red to a headphone AMP like the Valhalla 2?

Thanks

"All in one" devices can be great, so can separates. Just depends on what components you ultimately like and what works for you. There isn't a hard and fast rule that says one kind of device is better than the other though - good performing hardware exists in both camps. There is somewhat of an argument to be made that if the amp and DAC are separate, you can upgrade one (usually this line of reasoning focuses on the DAC) as time goes by (and as the reasoning goes, "due to advances in DAC technology") without having to junk the whole thing. It makes sense at its face, but OTOH if the gear sounds good on day 1, it will sound good on day 734 (or until it dies, or whatever), and I'm not 100% sold on the idea that "newer is always better" for DACs (I've got some fairly dated pieces of gear that I think sound fantastic (even alongside newer components), for example). So overall I wouldn't be wedded to one topology over the other.

I haven't heard the Dragonfly, but if I'm not mistaken it can function as both a headphone amplifier or a line-out source (that you can plug into another amplifier). I'd check the owner's manual or other documentation to verify that before buying though - there may be a switch or some other configuration thing you have to set, or who knows. Also if I'm not mistaken, Schiit also produces a range of DACs that share the form factor of that amplifier (if you want something that "matches"). There's also other companies that make similar products, like: Musical Fidelity, CI Audio, Marantz, TEAC, FiiO, Denon, and Creek. Since you're coming from a PC, you may also want to consider devices that are more marketed for PC-use, like those from Creative Labs or Asus (IME they tend to offer good quality at somewhat lower prices due to their more mass-market approach).

 

[cossix]

Valhalla 2 is great, nice choice. As for the DAC, it's optional but highly recommended. Most dac's are better than the ones in normal laptops or computers, even if just by a bit. I'd say get a Modi 2 in whichever flavor you want (Uber or Multibit) and you'll be happy.

Separate dac and amp units is not weird at all. If anything, they're more normal than combo units. Unless you buy a 40 dollar dac, there shouldn't be a bottleneck. It's a good idea to get a dac which is the same quality of the amp. The Modi 2 line pairs just fine with most amps. I wouldn't buy anything cheaper than a Modi 2 though.

 

[16610]

Never owned/used that specific amp (looks fine on paper though, but what's that really worth?), but yes I'd generally agree with having an amp for higher impedance cans if your source is ultimately a PC (very few of them are equipped to drive high-z loads like that).



Correct. The amplifier you linked only takes analog audio in, so you'll need some way to get an analog output and send that into it. Alternatively there are more combination devices that can connect to digital audio (e.g. S/PDIF) or directly to a PC (e.g. USB) and provide an amplifier headphone output, if you need something more compact.



Do you mean "separately" as-in having the amplifier you linked (or one like it) along with a DAC, or do you mean purchasing one component now and waiting for some period of time to buy the other? Overall I'd say "not very weird" to either, but some things to think about:

- If you do the two-box thing, they will need to be plugged into each other (so get appropriate cables for that), both will need power (more wires and maybe you need to consider a power strip if you've got computer + all that), and it will take up more space. None of these are explicitly "negatives" just considerations.

- If you're doing the "staggered purchasing" - buy the amp first. You can't hook your headphones up to the output of a straight DAC (because its just line level analog audio), so it'd be pretty useless without the amplifier.



Not significantly. The biggest bottlenecks, in rough order from worst to least (and this isn't proportionally relative):

- Headphones or speakers
- *Room acoustics/placement (for speakers only)
- Source material quality (you've said you're ripping CDs to flac, so unless its really awfully recorded/mastered stuff, it shouldn't be a big issue, but if you were going from 128k mp3s or something that'd certainly be an issue)
- Amplifier driving said headphones or speakers
- Digital playback device
- Cables

Overall the soundcard in your computer may even be good enough quality just to provide the 2ch line source for the amplifier. Basically as long as the output is clean (e.g. no noise/awful audible distortion (things like buzzing, hissing, etc)) it should be generally acceptable. That isn't to say that fancier components don't sound better, but there is certainly a point of diminishing returns that is reached fairly quickly with digital playback hardware. I'd say the majority of your budget should go into the cans themselves, and the next biggest item should be the amplifier; worry about the DAC last.



"All in one" devices can be great, so can separates. Just depends on what components you ultimately like and what works for you. There isn't a hard and fast rule that says one kind of device is better than the other though - good performing hardware exists in both camps. There is somewhat of an argument to be made that if the amp and DAC are separate, you can upgrade one (usually this line of reasoning focuses on the DAC) as time goes by (and as the reasoning goes, "due to advances in DAC technology") without having to junk the whole thing. It makes sense at its face, but OTOH if the gear sounds good on day 1, it will sound good on day 734 (or until it dies, or whatever), and I'm not 100% sold on the idea that "newer is always better" for DACs (I've got some fairly dated pieces of gear that I think sound fantastic (even alongside newer components), for example). So overall I wouldn't be wedded to one topology over the other.

I haven't heard the Dragonfly, but if I'm not mistaken it can function as both a headphone amplifier or a line-out source (that you can plug into another amplifier). I'd check the owner's manual or other documentation to verify that before buying though - there may be a switch or some other configuration thing you have to set, or who knows. Also if I'm not mistaken, Schiit also produces a range of DACs that share the form factor of that amplifier (if you want something that "matches"). There's also other companies that make similar products, like: Musical Fidelity, CI Audio, Marantz, TEAC, FiiO, Denon, and Creek. Since you're coming from a PC, you may also want to consider devices that are more marketed for PC-use, like those from Creative Labs or Asus (IME they tend to offer good quality at somewhat lower prices due to their more mass-market approach).

Massive thanks for this comprehensive explanation!

My first instinct said that it would be a bit weird to hook up a full size high quality AMP to a DAC like the Dragon Fly. What I meant is buying the DAC and AMP separately but at the same time of course. The reason is what you already explains: I feel DAC are subjective to innovations cq. changes more rapidly than an AMP.

Second reason for buying the DAC separately. Something like the Dragon Fly, I can use it on the run too (IEM + iPhone).

However, for some odd reason I feel like "crap in = crap out". Not saying a Dragon Fly is crap, but I certainly wouldn't hook up a prof. AMP to the internal sound card of my MacBook. Would you? Internal DAC's are often bashed and called inferior.

Buying an all-in-one solution seems the most ideal solution in terms of wires and portability. But again, what if you want to upgrade the DAC later? You need to trash your AMP in that case too.


Btw. I am quite surprised you mention Creative and Asus. I wouldn't consider it as a proper audiophile brand.

 

[cossix]

Massive thanks for this comprehensive explanation!

My first instinct said that it would be a bit weird to hook up a full size high quality AMP to a DAC like the Dragon Fly. What I meant is buying the DAC and AMP separately but at the same time of course. The reason is what you already explains: I feel DAC are subjective to innovations cq. changes more rapidly than an AMP.

Second reason for buying the DAC separately. Something like the Dragon Fly, I can use it on the run too (IEM + iPhone).

However, for some odd reason I feel like "crap in = crap out". Not saying a Dragon Fly is ****, but I certainly wouldn't hook up a prof. AMP to the internal sound card of my MacBook. Would you? Internal DAC's are often bashed and called inferior.

Buying an all-in-one solution seems the most ideal solution in terms of wires and portability. But again, what if you want to upgrade the DAC later? You need to trash your AMP in that case too.

Usually separate units is the way to go. Unless you get the Jotunheim which has a removable dac unit which may be able to be upgraded in the future. Most combo units aren't modular like that which is unfortunate. As for the Dragonfly, it'd be weird having a nice big Valhalla 2 and then some tiny little dac IMHO.

 

[16610]

Usually separate units is the way to go. Unless you get the Jotunheim which has a removable dac unit which may be able to be upgraded in the future. Most combo units aren't modular like that which is unfortunate. As for the Dragonfly, it'd be weird having a nice big Valhalla 2 and then some tiny little dac IMHO.

Well, exactly that is what I meant. It doesn't seem right. But it's considered as a good DAC. Still... I feel you.

 

[cossix]

Well, exactly that is what I meant. It doesn't seem right. But it's considered as a good DAC. Still... I feel you.

Well you can get a Modi Multibit for 250 bucks which is an amazing dac. I've heard so many good reviews of that dac but I haven't heard much at all for the Dragonfly. That alone says a lot

 

[16610]

Well you can get a Modi Multibit for 250 bucks which is an amazing dac. I've heard so many good reviews of that dac but I haven't heard much at all for the Dragonfly. That alone says a lot

That's a lot of money for a DAC IMO. What about the stock Modi 2 Uber for $150?

Would it make sense to hook this thing up to, let's say, the Valhalla2?

What tulip cable 'd you recommend between these units?

 

[Music Alchemist]

That's a lot of money for a DAC IMO. What about the stock Modi 2 Uber for $150?

The Modi Multibit is worth the added cost, in my opinion. If you're just going to get a Modi 2, might as well get the $30 Behringer UCA202 audio interface instead and save some cash. That's what I'm using at the moment, now that I've temporarily downgraded from high-end DACs. I have it connected to a Schiit SYS passive preamp, which is connected to a large power amp, as well as a headphone amp.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

My first instinct said that it would be a bit weird to hook up a full size high quality AMP to a DAC like the Dragon Fly. What I meant is buying the DAC and AMP separately but at the same time of course. The reason is what you already explains: I feel DAC are subjective to innovations cq. changes more rapidly than an AMP.

As long as the DAC has a clean, fixed voltage line output, as opposed to some now that has only has a headphone output, it's not a problem. Check the specs of the Dragonfly - AFAIK some models don't have that (the original Dragonfly I think, but double check).

Second reason for buying the DAC separately. Something like the Dragon Fly, I can use it on the run too (IEM + iPhone).

I use an Ibasso D-Zero with my phone and IEM as a transportable (when portable and walking around I don't bother with it), and use its line out to feed an amp at home with my laptop as Windows sometimes has driver issues with the USB DAC on my amp.

However, for some odd reason I feel like "crap in = crap out". Not saying a Dragon Fly is ****, but I certainly wouldn't hook up a prof. AMP to the internal sound card of my MacBook. Would you? Internal DAC's are often bashed and called inferior

The problem isn't really the DAC chip but how the analogue signal is handled by the rest of the circuit, and in the case of a laptop, you don't get a clean fixed voltage output.You can try setting it to 50% output or whatever but I'd rather just hook up a DAC. Imaging is improved too.

Buying an all-in-one solution seems the most ideal solution in terms of wires and portability. But again, what if you want to upgrade the DAC later? You need to trash your AMP in that case too.

My only real criterias with a DAC is whether it has all the inputs and outputs I need and with good quality output. Used to be I wouldn't really bother with compatibility with anything over 16/44.1, but most DACs have 24/96 nowadays, and I only have one album in 24/96 and that's because it's not available in 16/44.1 FLAC.

Btw. I am quite surprised you mention Creative and Asus. I wouldn't consider it as a proper audiophile brand.

The only real problems are high output impedance on the headphone output on internal cards and a few external units, which Creative is addressing on the AE5, and potential for system noise - whether electronic noise or cooling system noise in a computer (which is why I don't use my gaming rig - even its most quiet at idle still has a wind rush audible from my seat if I'm listening at night).

Higher THD+N would only really be a thing if you use the wrong headphones or compare these to something like a Meier or Violectric.

Then there's all the marketing bull - like how instead of labeling "Low / High Gain" they use some fancy but otherwise meaningless term that appeals to people who don't knnow what they're doing. Like "EXTREME PRO GAMING MODE (For >120ohm headphones) on my Xonar U3, which is pointless considering it's just gain and a 93dB sensitivity, 150hm headphone needs that high gain mode more than a 300ohm, 98dB headphone will.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Used to be I wouldn't really bother with compatibility with anything over 16/44.1, but most DACs have 24/96 nowadays, and I only have one album in 24/96 and that's because it's not available in 16/44.1 FLAC.

Most DACs I had supported hi-res, but the one I'm using at the moment can't do anything above 24/48. I can still play files above that resolution if I don't use bit-perfect output in foobar2000. In the past, I would just make a Red Book copy of hi-res files with dBpoweramp.