[samandhi]

Knowledge and competence cannot be disregarded in evaluation just for being objective, and simply classified as bias.

Yeah, now back to DX320.

Knowledge and competence are certainly useful for evaluation, but if that knowledge and competence make one too rigid in one's beliefs, then it can indeed (in some cases) become hinderance to discovery of new things (things that might have changed since one became knowledgeable and competent). The point is that this hobby is ever-changing (tech, theories, corrections of old beliefs, etc...) and if one knows something to be true, and refuses to believe that it can ever change, but the parameters do indeed change, one becomes stuck in past truths, not current technology or discovery.

To be skeptical to the point of refusing to believe it IS possible is definitely a hinderance. There needs to be a fine line between objectivity and knowledge, and they both need to be considered. This is how we grow, rather than remain stagnant IMO.

 

[voja]

Knowledge and competence cannot be disregarded in evaluation just for being objective, and simply classified as bias.

Yeah, now back to DX320.

You misunderstood what I said. If you go into an A/B test with bias, that is, you already set your mind on what you want to hear, there is absolutely no point in doing an A/B test. You will hear and believe whatever it was that you set your mind on beforehand. For example, if you go into an A/B test with internal storage vs Micron microSD card and before even doing it you've set your mind that there is/isn't a difference, that's bias.

ALSO: it is very, very important that you approach things like that with no bias. You must experience them neutrally or otherwise you will hear what you want to hear =) Prejudice will lead you nowhere.

It's psychology.

I mentioned this in the past, but there was a psychology study where a person was given two pairs of identical jeans. When they were asked to find a difference (prejudice), they found what they believed were differences. It goes the same for vice versa — if they were told the two pairs of jeans were identical, they would go with it.

Hopefully I cleared up the confusion. The same observations can be made about what I was talking about.

I like what you and Horatio said. The only problem is that Horatio declares that something has no need for debugging/troubleshooting/retesting because the math and theory was "supposed" to produce x result...

I see your point. But, for example, when it comes to firmware, I can see as to why someone might have a very hard time believing that. This debate easily gets to "show me the change on paper"...

To be skeptical to the point of refusing to believe it IS possible is definitely a hinderance.

Absolutely. However, if you haven't experience something and there is genuinely lack of scientific explanation behind it, it's more than reasonable to be skeptical ab it. Unfortunately, a lot of stuff in the audio space isn't scientifically backed up.... This leads to a lot of thing that do appear to alter sound to be immediately classified as "snake oil". This microSD card thing is definitely something that I immediately preformed an opinion about and classified as "snake oil". But when it came to doing the A/B test, I didn't have that bias where I was convinced and believed it didn't alter sound. I approached it without bias and expectations — I let my ears do their thing. If I heard a difference, success. If I didn't success. I was just looking to make an observation, and that's how I think it's correct to approach things of this nature.

In other words, I had prejudice against microSD cards altering sound, BUT, I was able to walk into the A/B test with a clear mind. Not everybody can do this, but it's something that is very important! In an A/B test, no bias should ever be present. Period.

I treat A/B tests like blind tests. I listen to my ears, not my mind.

 

[DarginMahkum]

Knowledge and competence are certainly useful for evaluation, but if that knowledge and competence make one too rigid in one's beliefs, then it can indeed (in some cases) become hinderance to discovery of new things (things that might have changed since one became knowledgeable and competent). The point is that this hobby is ever-changing (tech, theories, corrections of old beliefs, etc...) and if one knows something to be true, and refuses to believe that it can ever change, but the parameters do indeed change, one becomes stuck in past truths, not current technology or discovery.

To be skeptical to the point of refusing to believe it IS possible is definitely a hinderance. There needs to be a fine line between objectivity and knowledge, and they both need to be considered. This is how we grow, rather than remain stagnant IMO.

The same words that I keep reading here again and again.

For example, if you go into an A/B test with internal storage vs Micron microSD card and before even doing it you've set your mind that there is/isn't a difference, that's bias.

If a device is so sensitive to react to even to minuscule changes such as SD card and amplify it to audible levels, then there is something horriblly wrong in its design of this device - especially when the digital and analog power sources are separated. I am sure iBasso DAPs are not in this category.

 

[voja]

If a device is so sensitive to react to even to minuscule changes such as SD card and amplify it to audible levels, then there is something horriblly wrong in its design of this device - especially when the digital and analog power sources are separated.

I am not an engineer by any means, so I wouldn't dare to make any claims or statements about the technical side of things.

However, I know that I and many others have heard an audible difference when using Micron's industry-grade microSD cards (though the consumer-grade ones have also been perceived to make a difference).

Very few people from the audio space personally know me, but those that do know how big of a skeptic I am. I don't believe anything unless my own ears hear it. I can tell you with no bias whatsoever that I heard a difference in sound when my friend allowed me to use it on my DX300. Same, file, same volume, same headphones — I heard a difference.

As to why would a microSD card make a difference, I have no clue. Many others don't either, but @Whitigir himself made some assumptions.

 

[samandhi]

You misunderstood what I said. If you go into an A/B test with bias, that is, you already set your mind on what you want to hear, there is absolutely no point in doing an A/B test. You will hear and believe whatever it was that you set your mind on beforehand. For example, if you go into an A/B test with internal storage vs Micron microSD card and before even doing it you've set your mind that there is/isn't a difference, that's bias.

It's psychology.

I mentioned this in the past, but there was a psychology study where a person was given two pairs of identical jeans. When they were asked to find a difference (prejudice), they found what they believed were differences. It goes the same for vice versa — if they were told the two pairs of jeans were identical, they would go with it.

Hopefully I cleared up the confusion. The same observations can be made about what I was talking about.


I see your point. But, for example, when it comes to firmware, I can see as to why someone might have a very hard time believing that. This debate easily gets to "show me the change on paper"...


Absolutely. However, if you haven't experience something and there is genuinely lack of scientific explanation behind it, it's more than reasonable to be skeptical ab it. Unfortunately, a lot of stuff in the audio space isn't scientifically backed up.... This leads to a lot of thing that do appear to alter sound to be immediately classified as "snake oil". This microSD card thing is definitely something that I immediately preformed an opinion about and classified as "snake oil". But when it came to doing the A/B test, I didn't have that bias where I was convinced and believed it didn't alter sound. I approached it without bias and expectations — I let my ears do their thing. If I heard a difference, success. If I didn't success. I was just looking to make an observation, and that's how I think it's correct to approach things of this nature.

In other words, I had prejudice against microSD cards altering sound, BUT, I was able to walk into the A/B test with a clear mind. Not everybody can do this, but it's something that is very important! In an A/B test, no bias should ever be present. Period.

I treat A/B tests like blind tests. I listen to my ears, not my mind.

You were able to straddle the fine line of objectivity and knowledge. That is a good thing IMO. I remain skeptical about an SD card making a difference in sound, but I have never discounted it out of hand BECAUSE of the fact that I have not tried it myself. All my knowledge tells me that it is impossible, but my objective side tells me that I have seen some crazy stuff that I never thought possible, so.. maybe...

I generally try not to argue a point about something (vehemently anyhow) that I have never experienced, just because I read it isn't possible somewhere else. After all, I could find an article (with valid arguments) for both sides of just about any argument one can think of.

The same words that I keep reading here again and again.

If a device is so sensitive to react to even to minuscule changes such as SD card and amplify it to audible levels, then there is something horriblly wrong in its design of this device - especially when the digital and analog power sources are separated. I am sure iBasso DAPs are not in this category.

No offense, but you prove my exact point in your reply to @voja.

I think the principle here, where it relates to an SD card making a difference in sound isn't even about amplification, but is about whether the information is being transferred correctly or not. This I am not 100% sure about, but it seems to me that @Whitigir explained it better over on the DX300 thread. Maybe he could chime in here and explain why it makes a difference.

But, this is a perfect example of one not being objective and asking questions, but instead dismissing it out of hand because of one's knowledge actually (potentially) getting in the way. You're not disproving it, you are simply stating it isn't possible.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with you about this topic (as can be seen above), but I remain simply neutral until/unless it has been proven one way or another.

 

[Tomm11]

Thanks a lot for sharing that discovery! It explain how this could have been an ever more performing device.
Do you think that it can be modded to test the assertion?

What isn't widely known is that the "RIBONS tape" uses a triple super secret special conductor material that passes signal to those 3.5mm and 2.5mm output jacks in perfect phase and with absolute purity and integrity. It far exceeds the capability of the conductor used for the traces on the PCB itself.

 

[Vitaly2017]

Thanks a lot for sharing that discovery! It explain how this could have been an ever more performing device.
Do you think that it can be modded to test the assertion?

Everything is possible but it is very tight in that area where they decided to go for the ribon on the stock amp. Maybe moders can do there vest but I would definitely avoid ribon if I was the engineer of this amp lol

But dx320 still sounds amazing even with ribon, but I still dislike that idea AAAAAAAAA

 

[Whitigir]

Everything is possible but it is very tight in that area where they decided to go for the ribon on the stock amp. Maybe moders can do there vest but I would definitely avoid ribon if I was the engineer of this amp lol

But dx320 still sounds amazing even with ribon, but I still dislike that idea AAAAAAAAA

You can not avoid ribbon cables for portable device and Korg-tubes….or any tubes at all. There are one big issue, the movements of the players, assuming that we categorized it as a portable players and so most of the time they are in your palm or pocket, and constantly on the move. Using ribbon cables gave it 2 main advantages, dampening the physical motions/vibrations, and allowing the placements of the tubes.

Ibasso did a wonderful job on the Amp13, it has a lot more power than the Amp9 back in the day with dx200. It also has more current and output power than even the Cayin N8ii. It drives with a lot of authority. It doesn’t have any observable noises at least to me. The crackling and pops on sound adjustments are randomly happening to me as a bug. I found that if I do factory reset a couple times then it would be gone. But since I do root the DX320, and assign core usages to audio apps…I don’t want to bother much with factory resets. I just set volume at a comfy level and leave it there

With the latest firmware, neutron player doesn’t sound as good as Pure MangoOS. I don’t know what happened, but if one like Neutron player, perhaps the very original firmware is going to be your best bet. It did have some bugs, but it had a wonderful performances. This new firmware has the best MangoOS performances by far

I noticed that I got tagged a couple times, but I believe I have said enough about the MicroSD stuff. Just as you have known, I don’t want and don’t need to convince anyone. I believe that if you are enthusiastic enough, you would love to observe the differences for yourself. You may or may not be able to observe it, but the journey is what worth…not the result

 

[samandhi]

You can not avoid ribbon cables for portable device and Korg-tubes….or any tubes at all. There are one big issue, the movements of the players, assuming that we categorized it as a portable players and so most of the time they are in your palm or pocket, and constantly on the move. Using ribbon cables gave it 2 main advantages, dampening the physical motions/vibrations, and allowing the placements of the tubes.

Ibasso did a wonderful job on the Amp13, it has a lot more power than the Amp9 back in the day with dx200. It also has more current and output power than even the Cayin N8ii. It drives with a lot of authority. It doesn’t have any observable noises at least to me. The crackling and pops on sound adjustments are randomly happening to me as a bug. I found that if I do factory reset a couple times then it would be gone. But since I do root the DX320, and assign core usages to audio apps…I don’t want to bother much with factory resets. I just set volume at a comfy level and leave it there

With the latest firmware, neutron player doesn’t sound as good as Pure MangoOS. I don’t know what happened, but if one like Neutron player, perhaps the very original firmware is going to be your best bet. It did have some bugs, but it had a wonderful performances. This new firmware has the best MangoOS performances by far

I noticed that I got tagged a couple times, but I believe I have said enough about the MicroSD stuff. Just as you have known, I don’t want and don’t need to convince anyone. I believe that if you are enthusiastic enough, you would love to observe the differences for yourself. You may or may not be able to observe it, but the journey is what worth…not the result

Well said sir!

Have you noticed this with Mango android also, or only Mango OS?

 

[DarginMahkum]

You were able to straddle the fine line of objectivity and knowledge. That is a good thing IMO. I remain skeptical about an SD card making a difference in sound, but I have never discounted it out of hand BECAUSE of the fact that I have not tried it myself. All my knowledge tells me that it is impossible, but my objective side tells me that I have seen some crazy stuff that I never thought possible, so.. maybe...

I generally try not to argue a point about something (vehemently anyhow) that I have never experienced, just because I read it isn't possible somewhere else. After all, I could find an article (with valid arguments) for both sides of just about any argument one can think of.

No offense, but you prove my exact point in your reply to @voja.

I think the principle here, where it relates to an SD card making a difference in sound isn't even about amplification, but is about whether the information is being transferred correctly or not. This I am not 100% sure about, but it seems to me that @Whitigir explained it better over on the DX300 thread. Maybe he could chime in here and explain why it makes a difference.

But, this is a perfect example of one not being objective and asking questions, but instead dismissing it out of hand because of one's knowledge actually (potentially) getting in the way. You're not disproving it, you are simply stating it isn't possible.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with you about this topic (as can be seen above), but I remain simply neutral until/unless it has been proven one way or another.

If I were you, I wouldn't repeat these claims to a group, as there might be someone like me that knows what a filesystem is, how it works, how decompression works etc. etc., as he might have been doing this for work for many years, even while writing these sentences.

Anyway, I am out of this discussion. I was mainly following to find out if someone is using Wavelet or Poweramp EQ with DX320, as my question was not answered before. I guess I need to buy and try myself.

Enjoy the DX320.

 

[samandhi]

If I were you, I wouldn't repeat these claims to a group, as there might be someone like me that knows what a filesystem is, how it works, how decompression works etc. etc., as he might have been doing this for work for many years, even while writing these sentences.

Anyway, I am out of this discussion. I was mainly following to find out if someone is using Wavelet or Poweramp EQ with DX320, as my question was not answered before. I guess I need to buy and try myself.

Enjoy the DX320.

I have not used either app. I use Neutron for local files, and Amazon HD for streaming, and while Amazon's EQ is not great, it is ok. For Neutron, it has fantastic EQ/PEQ, and also Auto-EQ integrated.

I am not up on android programming, but doesn't Wavelet use android libraries? If this is the case, doesn't that mean that any bit-perfect player that bypasses android limitations, would not be affected by Wavelet?

 

[voja]

If I were you, I wouldn't repeat these claims to a group, as there might be someone like me that knows what a filesystem is, how it works, how decompression works etc. etc., as he might have been doing this for work for many years, even while writing these sentences.

Anyway, I am out of this discussion. I was mainly following to find out if someone is using Wavelet or Poweramp EQ with DX320, as my question was not answered before. I guess I need to buy and try myself.

Enjoy the DX320.

You see, I greatly respect your experience and knowledge! However, the tone is very off. If anything, it's threatening. Nobody here is above anyone else. We are all equal =)
Our experience, knowledge, etc. varies, but that doesn't mean that you have any right to tell someone to not share their observations. Our observations are relevant, your observations and knowledge is equally as relevant!

I know this is going to sound very wrong and I want to let you know that I don't have the intention to humiliate you. When it comes to technical knowledge, there are levels to it. This conversation would be much easier if we had these differences on paper, because then you would focus on finding out the answer to "Why is this happening?". It's not uncommon to see someone with a certain level of knowledge/experience unable to understand something that is beyond their knowledge/experience. This is not a personal jab at you, I'm just saying that there are probably levels to it. Being just a casual listener with no technical knowledge, I don't know what level you are at and whether you are a qualified expert to make speculations as to why we might be noticing a sonic difference with microSD cards.

The whole point of a website like Head-Fi is that there are thousands of us sharing our opinion. I can't speak for others, but I know for a fact that my intentions aren't to convince others of anything. I'm just sharing my observations and that's about it.

There are many, many, many... unexplained things in this hobby. I am not trying to make you admit that we are right, but I also think it's not okay that just due to your experience our experience should be dismissed. According to your knowledge due to years of working in that field, what we have heard should be impossible or an indicator of bad design, right? But at the end of the day, we heard those differences with our ears.

As to why microSD cards make a sonic difference, that I cannot tell you. Did I hear a clear difference? Yes. Was it only once? No.

It's a very controversial topic and you must stay open-minded if you want to have a discussion. Usually these conversations turn into "my opinion is more valid than yours because of X" and get into heated arguments quite quickly.

If you were to do an A/B test with the approach that it's impossible that it can alter the sound, it would be of no use. However, if you approach it neutrally and you find a difference and say "Hey, I'm wrong" that's the way to do it. The next step is to answer the "Why?". That's how you go forward.

It's like when you are employed, you leave all your problems at home and act professionally at work. When it comes to A/B tests, leave the judgement and prejudice behind you. Because, if you are entering an A/B test to prove your point, that's bias. However, if you are entering an A/B test to make non-biased observations, that's something different. Can we agree there?

Once again, I don't know for others, by I'm always trying to find out whether something is real and if so, why is it real. I would be more than happy to be proved wrong with science, I have no ego when it comes to that. I can say "I am wrong" and the next step is to try to understand as to why I was wrong. In science, you have outliers and things that behave out of the norm all the time. A scientist isn't going to dismiss those outliers and unusual behavior, instead he is going to try to understand it and find out why it is that happening. Think outside of the box =) The box is the known, everything outside of that box is the unknown.

I know it's getting kind of off-topic (though it's still relevant because we are talking something that was noticed on the DX300), but I just want you to know that I'm not here to dismiss what you have to say.

 

[hellfire8888]

Sony micro sd card . ! try it out . https://www.sony.jp/rec-media/products/SR-HXA/

 

[jamato8]

I have been using the DX320 with the AMP13 and using it as a line out from the outer most socket, the most direct to the NuTube, and to the Quicksilver Headphone amp and the RSA A-10 electrostatic amp, the sound is so very enjoyable. The same for the AMP11MK2s. And then back to the direct out to headphones or IEMs. The versatility is very enjoyable and for me, complete, a package this size I would never have dreamed of, giving this quality of sound/music. No real compromise.

I mentioned this before, about the aging, burn-in, etc., that caps, as most should know, play a very important and significant part to the sound and performance of a system. Objectively, the changes in new caps are extremely, very, no question about it, observable with a good device like the Sencore LC102. I can see where the ESR (very important) starts out and where it ends up. The actual capacitance, as it increases with time and as the capacitor becomes stable. These changes are observable and provable. Now if you think capacitors have no effect on the sound, then this won't matter to you but if you realize their significance, then the changes and impact are irrefutable.

And please remember, capacitors are most everywhere in electronics (i.e., SD cards) and therefore, they are changing in their capacity as a capacitor and their effect.

And then there is stray capacitance from a PCB and materials used.

 

[hartphoto]

If I were you, I wouldn't repeat these claims to a group, as there might be someone like me that knows what a filesystem is, how it works, how decompression works etc. etc., as he might have been doing this for work for many years, even while writing these sentences.

Anyway, I am out of this discussion. I was mainly following to find out if someone is using Wavelet or Poweramp EQ with DX320, as my question was not answered before. I guess I need to buy and try myself.

Enjoy the DX320.

Just a quiet read along head-fi’r here….

I am a Poweramp user. Used across several HTCs, then a couple One+ devices, now also on the DX320.

What was your question? I missed it.

I’ve also over the years bought Neutron and UAPP. Tried them all on the 320…for now sticking with old faithful Poweramp. It’s UI and way it reads my ~160gb of FLAC files just works.

Neutron and UAPP don’t appear to sort the way I like, haven’t the patience to dig through all the options to make it (or it requires me to redo folder structure). Both also goof album artwork. It’s probably me, but with Poweramp just working straight away….it’s time saved for now. FWIW, Neutron seemed to have some high end distortion on a few songs….probably another deep dive setting. But, it doesn’t happen on Poweramp with my usual setup.