[TyTB]

Hello everyone,

I recently made a post Here and on Reddit where I was asking about how to recreate the wonderful auditory experience I had at a music store years ago.
Those two threads brought in a lot of people who were in near-consensus about one thing: I need better headphones, not better audio gear.

I currently have a pair of Sennheiser HD 6XX's, running off a Grace SDAC. I did months of research before eventually settling on the Senn's. I watched tons of video reviews, read lots of articles and reviews, made forum posts and read threads on Head-Fi, and my understanding back then was that the 6XX's were pretty much the best headphones money could buy at that price range ($200 USD), and even well above it.

Best headphones in the world? No, of course not, but I saw MANY claims that the related HD 650's were the best headphones under $1000, in terms of neutrality, detail, and, surprisingly, sound stage, and that the HD 6XX's were basically the same, just tuned to be a little less neutral.

Now, though, it seems that everywhere I go and everywhere the 6XX's are mentioned, it gets chided as being a bad set of headphones, surpassed by a dozen others. Some go so far as to say "Literally anything feels less claustrophobic than the 600 series"

I don't really get where this seeming reversal of public opinion came from in recent years, but it's beside the point of this thread.

--

You have all convinced me that I would be much better off putting my money into a better set of headphones, instead of buying a better DAC/Amp combo.

The question then becomes "Well, which headphones do I buy?"

That discussion has lead to people saying "there's really not a lot of options at the $700-1000 USD price range. It's a bit of a desert on the headphone ladder."

Because of this back-and-forth, this one person says one thing, another person says the exact opposite, I'm feeling kinda lost.

The three characteristics I look for in a pair of headphones are, in order of importance:

1) Resolution / Detail / Imaging -- I want to hear every pluck of a string, ever breath of air, every sound there is.
2) A large sound stage -- I know this is considered overrated by some, but it's extremely important to me. I can't explain why, it's just what makes music enjoyable for me. And please don't say "just get speakers". I know, I'm working on that too. This thread is specifically for headphones.
3) Neutrality -- I want to hear music the way the artist intended. I don't want tons of bass, don't want screeching trebles, just want faithful reproduction.

Are there any headphones that meet these requirements, that can be purchased, new, for around $700-1000 USD? The only recommendations I've gotten are things like the Focal Clear's, at $1500, and the Sennheiser HD 800s for $1600, which are both way over my budget.

So, are there any options, or should I really just keep saving for another several years until I can get one of those pairs?

 

[spittis]

Hifiman Arya Organic would be my first recommendation based on your criteria, they are a bit above budget too though unless you find some refurbished version, Hifiman sells those now and then, or open box sale. If you can't stretch it, the Arya Stealth version should be within budget.

 

[msing539]

Just to touch on a few points... the HD600/650/6XX, they're solid headphones that can sound different on different setups (especially tubes). HD800/S is the same. You can look around and you'll see lots of members here with kilobuck headphones that still have an HD600.

Reddit is a neverending stream of users parroting around headphone recommendations. It's easy to say the HD6XX is the best, but very few people have heard everything even under that price point. Some of us here are on Reddit... I'm on Reddit. As soon as you put forward a recommendation outside the norm, it quickly becomes unpopular. That makes it hard to ask questions over there and get meaningful answers, in my opinion.

For soundstage, you can look to Hifiman. XS is a fine place to start, Ananda Nano, Arya Stealth. Check their site for open box and don't be afraid to buy refurbished from them directly. Those are all fairly neutral with good detail retrieval and wide soundstage. Sub $1000, I personally like the Quad ERA-1 after all this time, and the Sash Tres. Those are bigger and heavier than the Hifimans, if comfort is also a factor.

It's interesting that you liked the Denon D2000, as wide soundstage, etc. is not its strength. If you decide you want something a little more 'fun' but still neutral, you can find a used Denon D5200. These are not particularly wide, being closed backs, but they take a bass shelf really well if you ever want some nice rumble. Timbre is also excellent--that's something I personally value above all else in a headphone.

 

[TyTB]

Hifiman Arya Organic would be my first recommendation based on your criteria, they are a bit above budget too though unless you find some refurbished version, Hifiman sells those now and then, or open box sale. If you can't stretch it, the Arya Stealth version should be within budget.

Thank you for your recommendation. The Arya Organic's are beautiful looking, too, so that's a bonus.

Unfortunately, like you said, they're way beyond my budget, coming in at $1800 CAD.

That said, the Arya Stealth's, which are also way above my budget regularly, are currently on sale for $759 USD as a clearance sale, and that's basically exactly what I was prepared to spend on a Schitt Stack.

I've been trying to read up on the differences between the Organic and the Stealth, however, and cannot seem to find any meaningful distinction beyond the nanometer-thick diaphragm.

There's also an open-box model of the HE6SE v2 going for only $629 USD

Thoughts?

Just to touch on a few points... the HD600/650/6XX, they're solid headphones that can sound different on different setups (especially tubes). HD800/S is the same. You can look around and you'll see lots of members here with kilobuck headphones that still have an HD600.

Reddit is a neverending stream of users parroting around headphone recommendations. It's easy to say the HD6XX is the best, but very few people have heard everything even under that price point. Some of us here are on Reddit... I'm on Reddit. As soon as you put forward a recommendation outside the norm, it quickly becomes unpopular. That makes it hard to ask questions over there and get meaningful answers, in my opinion.

For soundstage, you can look to Hifiman. XS is a fine place to start, Ananda Nano, Arya Stealth. Check their site for open box and don't be afraid to buy refurbished from them directly. Those are all fairly neutral with good detail retrieval and wide soundstage. Sub $1000, I personally like the Quad ERA-1 after all this time, and the Sash Tres. Those are bigger and heavier than the Hifimans, if comfort is also a factor.

It's interesting that you liked the Denon D2000, as wide soundstage, etc. is not its strength. If you decide you want something a little more 'fun' but still neutral, you can find a used Denon D5200. These are not particularly wide, being closed backs, but they take a bass shelf really well if you ever want some nice rumble. Timbre is also excellent--that's something I personally value above all else in a headphone.

Yeah, you're right that answers outside the norm aren't treated well on Reddit, but I find reddit is better sometimes at giving direct answers (even if they're misguided), whereas Head-Fi users can sometimes get so caught up in the minutia of the audiophile world that they go right over the head of relative amateurs like myself. By using both, I'm hoping to converge on some kind of headphone that's recommended by both.

Also, please read my response directly above this one, the Arya Stealth and HE6SE v2 are both available to me within my budget. I could use some help sussing out the differences between the two models.

 

[msing539]

There's also an open-box model of the HE6SE v2 going for only $629 USD

Thoughts?

This one requires some power to get going. What are your amp specs?

Versus the Arya Stealth, the HE6SE v2 is more aggressive, for lack of a better adjective. Arya Stealth is more refined. Organic I've heard, but only briefly--I couldn't tell you how it compares directly with the Stealth, which I previously owned.

 

[TyTB]

This one requires some power to get going. What are your amp specs?

Versus the Arya Stealth, the HE6SE v2 is more aggressive, for lack of a better adjective. Arya Stealth is more refined. Organic I've heard, but only briefly--I couldn't tell you how it compares directly with the Stealth, which I previously owned.

None whatsoever. Running directly off a Grace SDAC plugged into my computer.

I was originally considering getting a Modius + Lyr stack from Schitt with the same $750, but was redirected by the folks on these forums, and reddit.

Now, if I'm putting that money into the headphones instead, I won't be able to get any other gear, it would just be the Grace SDAC for the next couple of years, until I save up some more money.

I have mild Tinnitus and listen to my music at fairly low volume, don't know if that helps to alleviate the need for an amp in the short term.

 

[msing539]

None whatsoever. Running directly off a Grace SDAC plugged into my computer.

Do you mean to say that you're running headphones off the sdac directly? I would get an amp... any amp. THX789 is $125 USD used.

 

[TyTB]

Do you mean to say that you're running headphones off the sdac directly? I would get an amp... any amp. THX789 is $125 USD used.

Yes, exactly.

My intentions were to get an amp, but everyone across both my HeadFi and Reddit posts were in agreement that the money would be better spent first getting a better pair of headphones, THEN a better amp or DAC. I always made sure to mention I was running my headphones directly off the SDAC in both posts.

 

[earmonger]

Please take a look at the Audio-Technica ATH-R70X, about $350 (US). Clarity, soundstage, natural timbre, weightless comfort, durable. Built to outdo the Senn HD650 in only good ways, removing the notorious Sennheiser "veil."
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17535412/audio-technica-r70x-review-professional-headphones

They are not bang-you-over-the-head boom-and-sizzle V-shaped headphones, though you could certainly EQ them that way if you wanted. They just bring out everything that's in the music -- and then they get out of the way.

In the US you can get one from Thomann with a 30-day return policy, I don't know about Canada -- if not Thomann, maybe Amazon.

They do need an amp to sound their best. But you do not have to splash out a huge amount for an amp. You can get a Schiit Magni+ for $60-$70.
https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-plus
It has an external power brick and is for a desktop.

You can get a VE Megatron for $56 shipped to USA. It runs on USB power from a computer or USB-C phone port.
https://www.veclan.com/engappliance_sel_one?eng_ApplianceVo.eac_id=63

I haven't heard some of the pricier models recommended here, and I do see a lot of HiFiMan fans around. But if you're willing to risk return shipping costs, you could easily try the ATH-R70X and you might love them as much as I do.

 

[Raketen]

Yes, exactly.

My intentions were to get an amp, but everyone across both my HeadFi and Reddit posts were in agreement that the money would be better spent first getting a better pair of headphones, THEN a better amp or DAC. I always made sure to mention I was running my headphones directly off the SDAC in both posts.

er... the sdac does't have a headphone output AFAICT... so how are you controlling volume?

 

[Rattle]

Focal clear OG

 

[preauxtip]

er... the sdac does't have a headphone output AFAICT... so how are you controlling volume?

Not OP but I used an SDAC for a while, It has a 3.5mm out on the back, idk that I'd call it a headphone out but you can plug headphones into it and it will work. But yeah it will require digital volume control. Also a big drawback is that the output impedance of that 3.5mm out on the SDAC is 150 ohm so unless you're working with a high-z headphone it can make the bass get very sloppy. Grab a closeout Schiit Magni+ or Heretic for $59 imo.

 

[haasaaroni]

Focal clear OG

My vote goes to this too. Never owned one, but absolutely loved it every time I’ve heard it. They go for great prices nowadays too.

 

[spittis]

Thank you for your recommendation. The Arya Organic's are beautiful looking, too, so that's a bonus.

Unfortunately, like you said, they're way beyond my budget, coming in at $1800 CAD.

That said, the Arya Stealth's, which are also way above my budget regularly, are currently on sale for $759 USD as a clearance sale, and that's basically exactly what I was prepared to spend on a Schitt Stack.

I've been trying to read up on the differences between the Organic and the Stealth, however, and cannot seem to find any meaningful distinction beyond the nanometer-thick diaphragm.

There's also an open-box model of the HE6SE v2 going for only $629 USD

Thoughts?


Yeah, you're right that answers outside the norm aren't treated well on Reddit, but I find reddit is better sometimes at giving direct answers (even if they're misguided), whereas Head-Fi users can sometimes get so caught up in the minutia of the audiophile world that they go right over the head of relative amateurs like myself. By using both, I'm hoping to converge on some kind of headphone that's recommended by both.

Also, please read my response directly above this one, the Arya Stealth and HE6SE v2 are both available to me within my budget. I could use some help sussing out the differences between the two models.

Ah you're in Canada, yeah then the Organic version is more above budget than I thought. I honestly can't give any details on how the Organic vs Stealth sounds, I've only heard the Organic, but based on others impressions they should be pretty similar so that's why I dared to give them a recommendation. I've also owned a pair of Anandas which have a similar sound signature.

Honestly though, about the amp, I'm one of the last persons to tell you that amps make any big audible differences (when certain criteria are met), but if you're running your headphones straight out of that DAC at the moment, I too would definitely recommend you get a separate headphone amp. You can keep using the current DAC, but a dedicated amplifier with volume control would ensure that you have no issues there, and dedicated volume control is usually desirable. There are many budget models to choose from (Fiio, Topping, Schiit to name a few) around the 100 currency mark.

Also, regarding the HE6SE, that's one headphone model that is notorious for requiring a beefy amp, so I would not get that, especially with your current setup. The Arya is much easier in that regard.

 

[Raketen]

Not OP but I used an SDAC for a while, It has a 3.5mm out on the back, idk that I'd call it a headphone out but you can plug headphones into it and it will work. But yeah it will require digital volume control. Also a big drawback is that the output impedance of that 3.5mm out on the SDAC is 150 ohm so unless you're working with a high-z headphone it can make the bass get very sloppy. Grab a closeout Schiit Magni+ or Heretic for $59 imo.

If it's just a line out, seems like a rather dodgy setup- especially since IIRC, these are meant to output into a high fixed resistance at the input of an amp rather than the variable impedance/current draw of a headphone?

Aside from potentially affecting audio performance, could conceivably damage the DAC output circuit or some headphones (or hearing) depending on each device's specs , software/driver stability, etc... though seems hd6xx is not such a concern

At any rate, probably wouldn't want to go out and buy some pricy low impedance planars and chance plugging them into line level?

If OP's setup is indeed this way, I'd be curious if they ever tried comparing with a proper headphone output that's a least in the ballpark of 6xx's requirements.