[lejaz]

@shamu 144
Even if I listen to a sine wave tone and pinpoint the roll off more clearly, it won't change what I'm hearing when I listen to music. I know what my ears are hearing and it's my ears that I have to satisfy in the end. Your experience getting better bass with the Lavry leaves me hopeful, though.
 

 

[shamu144]

.

 

[shamu144]

Agree. This is why I wrote earlier: But the DT48 should not make a kick drum sound like a tom-tom, nor a double bass sound like a cello. Yes, you will miss the lowest octave of an organ, or even a concert piano, but I think Lejaz has a different problem with his DT48.
 
May I suggest 2 more options to look into: your source and a proper impedance adapter.
 
The DT48 are mercyless and will let you ear everything of your system. If your EMU0404 is somehow lacking bass extension, it could well be the culprit. You said plugging the DT48 straight into the EMU amp did produce the same bass response...
 
I also stronlgy suggest the use of a proper matched quality impedance adapter (not 300 ohms nor other values). The DT48 is designed to be hooked to a 120 ohms source impedance. Other headphone like the Beyer DT931 and DT831 I believe as well. I quote the designer of the Sonett amp, Donald North:
 
Some headphones are designed with low source impedance in mind; others with the 120 ohm IEC spec. If a headphone was designed to see a 120 ohm source impedance but is used with much lower impedance amplifier, the bass may then be overdamped and not necessarily as the designers intended. My desire is to offer both and let the listener choose.
 
I personally alwasy use my 100 ohms adapter bought from Drew at Moon Audio with my DT48E. It did increase bass response in my set up.

 

[lejaz]

Thanks shamu, for the clarification. That overdamped may be the key. Definitely worth trying the 100ohm adapter. You were correct about the listening volume and the Fletcher Munson curve. I get somewhat better mid-bass by listening at higher volume....not great...but better than with lower volume. Lower bass is still severely lacking, even at higher volume, relative to the k702, which is much better.
 

 

[kool bubba ice]

The DT48 hype machine must be doing a awful job since the DT48 can be had well below their MSRP of 449.00.. If you want to talk about hype based on dollar value, look no further then the HP1/2 which sell between 1,400-2,000... When the HP1 retailed for 595.00 & the HP2 for 495.00.. So really, which hype machine is doing a better job?
 
Quote:

No, the LD-V does not have a problem driving low impedance headphones. Nor does it have inherently weak bass.
 
People with Ultrasone headphones at 40 ohms and Denon D2000/5000/7000 at about 26ohms on the LD V like it a lot. Grados at about 32 ohms are not bad on the LD V either.
 
You are trying to find a problem with the amp, and a solution with the amp when the problem is that you just dont like the headphones you have. Most problems are quite easy to solve if you look at the right (or in this case wrong) parts and deal with them appropriately. If you let yourself be distracted by something the solution will never come.
 
You are in a spot where the headphones just dont do what you want. Sell them. Quickly. 
 
The good news is that the head-fi hype machine has been pumping up the DT-48 for the past few weeks. Unless you price them unrealistically high they should go quickly. Take the money and buy something that you think will suit your taste better.

 

[kool bubba ice]

I get great results out of my 200 ohm DT48 with my GP V12 amp... Will try my 25ohm version later.. But bass is plentiful, extends low with deep bass with R&B & hip hop..
 
Quote:

Agree. This is why I wrote earlier: But the DT48 should not make a kick drum sound like a tom-tom, nor a double bass sound like a cello. Yes, you will miss the lowest octave of an organ, or even a concert piano, but I think Lejaz has a different problem with his DT48.
 
May I suggest 2 more options to look into: your source and a proper impedance adapter.
 
The DT48 are mercyless and will let you ear everything of your system. If your EMU0404 is somehow lacking bass extension, it could well be the culprit. You said plugging the DT48 straight into the EMU amp did produce the same bass response...
 
I also stronlgy suggest the use of a proper matched quality impedance adapter (not 300 ohms nor other values). The DT48 is designed to be hooked to a 120 ohms source impedance. Other headphone like the Beyer DT931 and DT831 I believe as well. I quote the designer of the Sonett amp, Donald North:
 
Some headphones are designed with low source impedance in mind; others with the 120 ohm IEC spec. If a headphone was designed to see a 120 ohm source impedance but is used with much lower impedance amplifier, the bass may then be overdamped and not necessarily as the designers intended. My desire is to offer both and let the listener choose.
 
I personally alwasy use my 100 ohms adapter bought from Drew at Moon Audio with my DT48E. It did increase bass response in my set up.

 

[nikongod]

 
Quote:

 
The DT48 hype machine must be doing a awful job since the DT48 can be had well below their MSRP of 449.00.. If you want to talk about hype based on dollar value, look no further then the HP1/2 which sell between 1,400-2,000... When the HP1 retailed for 595.00 & the HP2 for 495.00.. So really, which hype machine is doing a better job?

 
The one with functional ears not riding a fringe headphone. Irony! HP-2 sell even when there isnt an appreciation thread on the top page.
 
The HD600, 650, DT880/990/770 can also be had below their MSRP. So can AKG K701/601 Thank all things holly in headyphones that in the last 40 years engineers have figured out how to make a headphone that dosnt outright suck.

 

[lejaz]

 I hope you aren't saying that people who like something that you yourself don't like are victims of hype or don't have functional ears. Would that include the Motown engineer who claimed the dt48 was as close to live music as he's ever heard? Anyway, no one's the ultimate authority on what sounds good, so let's have some respect for other people's taste/ears. To get back on topic... KBI, I'm curious if the bass of your 25 ohm model is as good as the bass of the 200ohm one with your amp.

 

[nikongod]

 
Quote:

 I hope you aren't saying that people who like something that you yourself don't like are victims of hype or don't have functional ears. Would that include the Motown engineer who claimed the dt48 was as close to live music as he's ever heard? Anyway, no one's the ultimate authority on what sounds good, so let's have some respect for other people's taste/ears. To get back on topic... KBI, I'm curious if the bass of your 25 ohm model is as good as the bass of the 200ohm one with your amp.

Certainly not, everyone has the right to enjoy their own headphone for themselves. I was quite happy simply saying that the headphones dont/didnt suit your tastes because thats really what this whole thread sounds like. Anyways, that was cool until another headphone that has stood the test of time, and is generally better regarded with regards to tonal balance (the HP1000) was brought up negatively VS the flavor of the last few months (Ok, so its a few months out of the last few years running). IMO most modern headphones have better tonal balance from lows to highs than the DT48. The DT48 generally outperforms modern headphones for microdetails, but this whole thread has been about how to get more bass out of the bass-less wonders.
 
I could be very wrong about the DT48 ownership cycle, but i think it goes like this:
People hear about the dt48
They buy the dt48
Ramp up hype machine
Listen to DT48 until their bass-less nature becomes annoying
Sell dt48
Hype machine dies down for 6-8months.
mneh, thats how it went when I bought my set.
 
Regarding the Motown engineer: who and what year? Does it even matter what other people think, when the quoted passage is about what YOU like for yourself?
 
I would stand behind my comment that I thank all things holly that the DT48 were not the pinnacle of headphone design. There is more to sound than midrange detail.
 
As an interesting question:
Do audiologists and other people performing standardized tests use the DT48 because they are the final word in sound quality or because they are the standards against which their tests are calibrated? There are plenty of standardized tests that use outdated equipment because it would be cost prohibitive or introduce variables in the middle of a long-term test (over several years for example) or to redesign the test around a newer and piece of gear even though it is generally considered better. Food for thought.

 

[lejaz]

O.K. no problem. I can't argue with most of what you wrote other than what you imply about the hype machine. I doubt it's just hype that drives people to keep the dt48 even when they have much more expensive headphones in their collection. Anyway, to the point....I personally do like the way they present the midrange, and not just for the detail...it's the very realistic tonal balance of the mids....to my ears, of course...but I've been a musician for a whole lot of years and sat behind a drum kit for a lot of them. I'd take the dt48 and the 240DF over the 702 any day for midrange realism. I haven't heard the HP1000. Perhaps I'll change my opinion of the dt48 if I ever get the chance. As far as the bass issue, that hasn't been proven either way yet to my satisfaction. The bass is lacking with the mkV...I have no question about that. As for whether that can be improved upon, I only have hearsay....some say they are inherently bass light, and others say the bass improves substantially with proper amp synergy.

 

[kool bubba ice]

In general, the DT48 are 'bass lite.' Again.. There is no bass emphasis. This was designed this way for monitoring the bass levels of recording & engineering IMOeople can talk about sub bass, which means below bass, which makes little sense to me.. Below the bass?? Lower octave regions?
 
I'd suggest a modern DT48e 200 ohm if you decide to keep this amp.. I know there will be more bass, but enough for you? I don't know.. The HP1000's bass is most likely night & day from your vintage DT48.. Viseral impact..Quantity..Slam.. The HP1000 does this much better.. People who love the DT48 won't dismiss it due to a perceived lack of bass.. Hell, many feel the HD800 bass is 'lite' & not accurate..
 
Why anyone would use out dated gear in this day & age makes little sense.. If there was better then  the DT48 for what they were made for, NAGRA recording, ENG, field work, I know hospitals, studio's, production companies would be using them.. What other field uses technology from 1937 that demands accurate & reliable measurements?? There must be something to them. People can label me as a DT48 fanboy, not to be believed.. But when you quote 20 plus others who feel the DT48 'magic' it carries more weight especially when you have members who own lengendary gear like Kevin, Erik, Miles, & a few others. They REFUSE to sell their out dated DT48.. Kevin own 6 & owns a HD800.. There must be somthing to them..
 

 
Quote:

O.K. no problem. I can't argue with most of what you wrote other than what you imply about the hype machine. I doubt it's just hype that drives people to keep the dt48 even when they have much more expensive headphones in their collection. Anyway, to the point....I personally do like the way they present the midrange, and not just for the detail...it's the very realistic tonal balance of the mids....to my ears, of course...but I've been a musician for a whole lot of years and sat behind a drum kit for a lot of them. I'd take the dt48 and the 240DF over the 702 any day for midrange realism. I haven't heard the HP1000. Perhaps I'll change my opinion of the dt48 if I ever get the chance. As far as the bass issue, that hasn't been proven either way yet to my satisfaction. The bass is lacking with the mkV...I have no question about that. As for whether that can be improved upon, I only have hearsay....some say they are inherently bass light, and others say the bass improves substantially with proper amp synergy.

 

[lejaz]

For what I would have to pay for the 200ohm dt48e I could get a better amp for them....maybe the gilmore lite...or EC/SS second hand...something made for low impedance phones. I can't afford to buy both the phones and an amp. At this point I'm up in the air...at least until I can get more feedback on amping the one I have...the 25ohm model. AS far as judging bass level goes, I don't take anything I read on the forums as gospel. One really talented engineer claims the RP21 is the best he's heard as far as accuracy for monitoring/mixing. To me the bass on them is way over the top, while the bass on the k702 is just right. Other people claim the 702 is bass light... so go figure. No one's the ultimate authority. In the end I can only go by what sounds most realistic to me which, for bass, is the 702.... for mids it's the dt48.

 

[lejaz]

Here's a link to a song I recorded a few years back that is a perfect example of what I've been talking about:http://acidcowboys.bandcamp.com/track/little-easy
About 4 or 5 sec into the song there's a bass drum kick that sounds O.K. with the 702, but with the dt48 it's not a bass drum anymore...more like a tom-tom! A few sec. later the regular bass drum kicks come in and they're definitely rolled off with the dt48. I'm very curious if shamu hears the same thing with the lavry amp....or KBI with his GP v12. Because of the added bass presence...even upper bass...the whole song sounds quite a bit warmer with the 702. I remixed that track with the 240DF so naturally, that's the one which sounds best. Again I will qualify by saying this is with the ld mkV which may be a poor match for the dt48....thus the reason for this thread in the first place.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Too bad there is no definition or scientific study for accurate bass.. I used to think the 701 was bass lite & inaccurate.. I would describe the bass as a ant farting.. Later on when I started to mature musically, I begain to appreciate the 701's bass, & now feel they are more accurate then I first thought.. In fact, for the most part, I think they are pretty dead on.. I still feel the DT48's bass, love it or hate, is more neutral/flat & gives a better portrayl of the actual recording.. But, yes, in some instances, even I think the bass is off on the DT48 for certain instruments, where as the 701's seem to get it right..
 
Quote:

For what I would have to pay for the 200ohm dt48e I could get a better amp for them....maybe the gilmore lite...or EC/SS second hand...something made for low impedance phones. I can't afford to buy both the phones and an amp. At this point I'm up in the air...at least until I can get more feedback on amping the one I have...the 25ohm model. AS far as judging bass level goes, I don't take anything I read on the forums as gospel. One really talented engineer claims the RP21 is the best he's heard as far as accuracy for monitoring/mixing. To me the bass on them is way over the top, while the bass on the k702 is just right. Other people claim the 702 is bass light... so go figure. No one's the ultimate authority. In the end I can only go by what sounds most realistic to me which, for bass, is the 702.... for mids it's the dt48.

I heard many DT48's with a variety of music & never found the kick drum to sound like 'tom,' 'toms,'. A bit lacking but never to that extent..IMO.. The SA5000 does the kick drum perfectly.. & is easily the most realistic I heard out of any headphone I auditioned or owned. I'm sure the amp is partly to blame, but a lot of the fault lies with the DT48 itself.. Like the expression goes, you can't make Chicken salad out of Chicken shix..
 
Quote:

Here's a link to a song I recorded a few years back that is a perfect example of what I've been talking about:http://acidcowboys.bandcamp.com/track/little-easy
About 4 or 5 sec into the song there's a bass drum kick that sounds O.K. with the 702, but with the dt48 it's not a bass drum anymore...more like a tom-tom! A few sec. later the regular bass drum kicks come in and they're definitely rolled off with the dt48. I'm very curious if shamu hears the same thing with the lavry amp....or KBI with his GP v12. Because of the added bass presence...even upper bass...the whole song sounds quite a bit warmer with the 702. I remixed that track with the 240DF so naturally, that's the one which sounds best. Again I will qualify by saying this is with the ld mkV which may be a poor match for the dt48....thus the reason for this thread in the first place.

 

[lejaz]

 
Quote:

I heard many DT48's with a variety of music & never found the kick drum to sound like 'tom,' 'toms,'. A bit lacking but never to that extent..IMO..

 

Tom-tom is a bit of an exaggeration to make a point...but really, not by much. Have a listen to the track I linked to and tell me what you hear. Do you hear a relatively 'normal' kick drum? If so, then my amp is the problem, not the headphones. It is far from 'normal' with my set up.