[MorrisL]

I think we're saying the same thing. All I'm saying is that if people weren't willing to buy them, then manufacturers wouldn't make the products.

IMHO, the idea of diminishing returns is entirely personal. Some people are willing to drop thousands of dollars and it's of absolutely no consequence to them. Others see diminishing returns for anything over $50. I absolutely agree that most people that come to head-fi for the first time aren't looking to spend thousands, and value should be part of their criteria - but I think the concept of value is NOT something anyone else can set for them. They need to set that for themselves. If someone sets a budget and sound preference, I'll happily give suggestions to meet those requirements. If someone wants the "best value" headphones or wants to know if an upgrade is "worth the price", then I'm out - I can't answer that question for them.

I agree with all of that. The thing is sometimes there is no value to speak of. It's just another headphone at a higher price. 
 
It's been eye opening for me to consider how strong the illusion is about a $400 HD650 being a better value over the $150 DT990pro. Well, yeah, they have different sound signatures, but the overall sound quality they produce is essentially on the same level. But even as I am writing this, I myself have a lingering suspicion that the 650 may indeed be of better quality than the 990, solely because I can see their relative price tags that I just typed! You kind of have to take a moment and think on each step of the way. I know I'm not the only one like this. My god, the human brain is so irrational! 

 

[billybob_jcv]

But that's all *your* personal evaluation of value. I know folks who consider the HD650 a decent "mid-fi" headphone, but they would never depend on it for critical listening. They might say it's no where near the same league as their LCD-3F, Stax or Abyss. And, they don't have just *one* of those multi-kilobuck headphones - they might have several. The whole concept of "value" is completely different for them - we simply can't comprehend the world the same way they do. On the other end of the scale, nearly every head-fier has had the experience of trying to explain to a "civilian" (nonhead-fier) why we need to have 10 different pairs of headphones, or why we have a DAC/amp strapped to our phone, etc. Even if we only spent $100 on our rig, they look at us like we're completely nuts.

 

[Solrighal]

Besides, any fool knows the HD 650 is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[retskrad]

No its not. The hd650 does lower bass and subbass disturbingly bad. Not acceptable for the former sennheiser flagship. The hd650 is tuned for 100% vocal music IMO.

 

[Solrighal]

  No its not. The hd650 does lower bass and subbass disturbingly bad. Not acceptable for the former sennheiser flagship. The hd650 is tuned for 100% vocal music IMO.

 
Really?

 

[gahung]

Well because of diminishing returns. I bought the ATH-M50 for $100 and the hd650 for $500, they are not 5 times better, there are subtle differences, but nowhere near the 500% increase in price. Maybe its 10% better, in my opinion. And then comes the hd650 to the lcd2, and the difference in sound fidelity is probably closer to 5%, because the higher you go, the less increase in sound you'll get.

Its like going to the gym and doing the first set of bench press. Every set after the first will make less and less of a difference all the way down to single digit differences in muscle tear down, so why bother right, with so much effort and so little gain? 

You are right about this. I just realized how stupid I am after getting my lcd-x. Yes they are better than the hd650 and he400, but I paid more than a thousand dollar for a better treble and a little bit more balance. I would say get a set of speaker, no matter how good a headphone is, it can never reach the level of a nice speaker.

 

[Solrighal]

You are right about this. I just realized how stupid I am after getting my lcd-x. Yes they are better than the hd650 and he400, but I paid more than a thousand dollar for a better treble and a little bit more balance. I would say get a set of speaker, no matter how good a headphone is, it can never reach the level of a nice speaker.

 
I used to wear speakers but people treated me differently and I could never get velcro strong enough to keep them on my shoulders. Great sound though.

 

[auvgeek]

Recently, I let my mom and my girlfriend listen to the Soundmagic HP-150 ,DT-880, HE-500, HE-560, and LCD-2F out of the Audio-gd Compass DAC/amp and Gustard H10 amp. Neither of them really had any idea what things really cost. The consensus was the LCD-2F was really amazing with the H10, and the HE-560/H10 was a close second. I would definitely say that you need a proper amp, and you should budget accordingly. My advice: buy an amp that drives low-impedance cans first (I obviously recommend the Gustard H10). After you get upgrade-itis, grab a pair of used LCD-2Fs for ~ $700. 
 
My original setup, the DT880 and Compass, totaled USD $350. The H10 and LCD-2F together add about $1100. Is it worth it? I dunno. But it is a HUGE step up. Regarding your question, my impression (having no experience with speakers) is that the quality of sound you get out of a good headphone and amp is FAR better than what you'd get out of speakers for the same amount of money.
 
Edit: Could you get close to the same level with another pairing? Is a Bottlehead Crack + HD650 close to as good for half the price? I haven't listened so I don't know.

 

[gahung]

   
I used to wear speakers but people treated me differently and I could never get velcro strong enough to keep them on my shoulders. Great sound though.

So you wear your hd650/ lcd-2 outside? That's a good neck muscle exercise. Smart people!

 

[Solrighal]

So you wear your hd650/ lcd-2 outside? That's a good neck muscle exercise. Smart people!

No, of course I don't. Outside I wear my V-Moda M-100's.

 

[Arnotts]

You are right about this. I just realized how stupid I am after getting my lcd-x. Yes they are better than the hd650 and he400, but I paid more than a thousand dollar for a better treble and a little bit more balance. I would say get a set of speaker, no matter how good a headphone is, it can never reach the level of a nice speaker.

LOL dude what the hell are you using in your audio chain with your LCD-X's?
 
Obviously with $1700 headphones you're well into the realm of diminishing returns, but both 2's and X's are significantly better than HE-400's. You need to make sure you aren't bottlenecking your whole audio chain.
 
HE-400's are GREAT value headphones at $300. I know this because I own them. They're not even in the same league as LCD-2's and LCD-X's. Give your ears some time to get used to the X's, make sure you use them with good quality source files and make sure you use them with a good quality DAC + amp.

 

[gahung]

No, of course I don't. Outside I wear my V-Moda M-100's.

That's why we are not on the same page. Save sometime for both of us, I don't understand what you are saying. 

 

[Arnotts]

  Recently, I let my mom and my girlfriend listen to the Soundmagic HP-150 ,DT-880, HE-500, HE-560, and LCD-2F out of the Audio-gd Compass DAC/amp and Gustard H10 amp. Neither of them really had any idea what things really cost. The consensus was the LCD-2F was really amazing with the H10, and the HE-560/H10 was a close second. I would definitely say that you need a proper amp, and you should budget accordingly. My advice: buy an amp that drives low-impedance cans first (I obviously recommend the Gustard H10). After you get upgrade-itis, grab a pair of used LCD-2Fs for ~ $700. 
 
My original setup, the DT880 and Compass, totaled USD $350. The H10 and LCD-2F together add about $1100. Is it worth it? I dunno. But it is a HUGE step up. Regarding your question, my impression (having no experience with speakers) is that the quality of sound you get out of a good headphone and amp is FAR better than what you'd get out of speakers for the same amount of money.
 
Edit: Could you get close to the same level with another pairing? Is a Bottlehead Crack + HD650 close to as good for half the price? I haven't listened so I don't know.

I did the exact same thing with my LCD-2F's and LCD-X's + H10 amp

 
Same results - even non-audiophiles were all mind blown at how amazing everything sounded.
 
I also upgraded from mid-fi in a similar way to you. Went from HE400s/Pro 900s/Q701s driven by a Matrix M-Stage DAC and a Matrix M-Stage amp to my current setup.

 

[gahung]

 
I did the exact same thing with my LCD-2F's and LCD-X's + H10 amp

 
Same results - even non-audiophiles were all mind blown at how amazing everything sounded.
 
I also upgraded from mid-fi in a similar way to you. Went from HE400s/Pro 900s/Q701s driven by a Matrix M-Stage DAC and a Matrix M-Stage amp to my current setup.

I went back and check the OP question again to make sure I am not misunderstanding him, and I think he wants to know comparing to upgrade to a thousand dollar headphone, if he can get a better sound by going for a speaker setup with the same amount of money. For his first question, I am pretty sure most people can hear the difference. As the owner of the three phones, I do realized there are gaps b/t the "lower end" hd650 and he400, but do they worth the $1400 more? I am not sure. My dad has a speaker setup worth about $3000, and every time I go home I will leave my phones in my apartment because I know there's better sound at home. When I listen to music, I don't just try to find what's better for one phone in one area(treble, mids, and bass, etc.) but to enjoy the music from the overall environment it creates. Back to the lcds, I think they are better than the other two from this judgement. However, the fist reaction of my girlfriend wearing the lcd-x was "Why is this so heavy, take it away from me!" ha.

 

[Arnotts]

  I went back and check the OP question again to make sure I am not misunderstanding him, and I think he wants to know comparing to upgrade to a thousand dollar headphone, if he can get a better sound by going for a speaker setup with the same amount of money. For his first question, I am pretty sure most people can hear the difference. As the owner of the three phones, I do realized there are gaps b/t the "lower end" hd650 and he400, but do they worth the $1400 more? I am not sure. My dad has a speaker setup worth about $3000, and every time I go home I will leave my phones in my apartment because I know there's better sound at home. When I listen to music, I don't just try to find what's better for one phone in one area(treble, mids, and bass, etc.) but to enjoy the music from the overall environment it creates. Back to the lcds, I think they are better than the other two from this judgement. However, the fist reaction of my girlfriend wearing the lcd-x was "Why is this so heavy, take it away from me!" ha.

Alternatively, the reaction from my girlfriend when she listened to music on both the LCD-2's and LCD-X's was "I don't want to take them off... ever!"
 
Check the synergy of your headphones with other amps and DACs, my friend. The ones you're currently using are obviously not giving you the magic that you should be hearing.
 
The quality of LCD-X's should rival absolute TOP END, multi-thousand dollar speaker systems. One the designers of these speaker systems actually reviewed the LCD-X's himself:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audeze-lcd-x-headphones/
 
Arnie Nudell apparently designed a speaker system that sells for over $200,000, and here he is praising the LCD-X's for their ability to rival (and beat out) top end speakers.
 

“We now have come full circle in my quest to understand, and participate in, personal audio. I now truly understand what it is about and why it is appreciated by so many people. It is my opinion that the LCD-X can compete with all of the very best high-end loudspeakers. This headphone, for example, has extraordinarily wide and even frequency response which extends from below 20Hz to far beyond 20kHz, and even at very loud levels, has very low distortion. It also has the great quality called continuousness, a term which I believe was coined by The Absolute Sound’s Jonathan Valin. [Actually, the term was coined by HP; I just expanded on his idea.—JV.] It means that the sound seems to be cut from a single cloth in that, from the lowest to the highest frequency, there is no difference in sonic quality. It is one of the great characteristics of a single transducer.”