[jerg]

Quote:

I never really understood having to be "trained" to appreciate higher end headphones, am I actually missing something or is it typical audiophile snobbery?
 
If I can't hear something because I'm untrained, why should I care anyway, if the only reason I bought a higher end headphone is for the particular presentation of things that I can hear.
 
Can you really say that I'm wasting high-end headphones because I'm somewhat dumb?
 
I always thought 'upgrading' headphones was all about "different different different", and not, "more more more".
 
This is coming from a guy who completely skipped mid-fi and currently uses Stax's once flagship headphone to listen to ~64kbps livestream's of lolis singers with absolutely no clue on how to record, mix, and more often than not, sing.

It just means you are not into audiophilia; those truly passionate about it care more about the journey (of upgrades / "training" / comparisons / modding etc) than the than the destination (usually there is none), and appreciate every step of the way.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I never really understood having to be "trained" to appreciate higher end headphones, am I actually missing something or is it typical audiophile snobbery?
 
If I can't hear something because I'm untrained, why should I care anyway, if the only reason I bought a higher end headphone is for the particular presentation of things that I can hear.
 
Can you really say that I'm wasting high-end headphones because I'm somewhat dumb?
 
I always thought 'upgrading' headphones was all about "different different different", and not, "more more more".
 
This is coming from a guy who completely skipped mid-fi and currently uses Stax's once flagship headphone to listen to ~64kbps livestream's of lolis singers with absolutely no clue on how to record, mix, and more often than not, sing.

Its mostly snobbery as far as I can tell.  It also goes back to the derogatory definition of a audiophile:
 
A normal person listens to the music through the equipment, an audiophile listens to the equipment through the music.
 
You can tell that's true for a lot of people because of all the "audiophile" labels that vie to convince them they sell albums with the best recording and mastering.  That's great if your tastes already lay in the classical and jazz direction (because you won't find much else from those labels...) but the number of people who recommend that some noob listen to different music when they turn out not to like their expensive headphones betrays their actual preferences.
 
"Broaden you musical tastes," they say.  Really, why don't they broaden their musical tastes.  Have some Dimmu Borgir and Exmortus.  No?  OK.  How about some vocaloids instead?  What you don't like that either and you don't want to listen to it?  OK, so you actually meant that I should keep the same breadth and shift my tastes to something else that you approve of, otherwise you'd be willing to expand yours right?  Its both asinine and deeply condescending.
 
 
Somehow, they fail to see this misses the whole point of buying expensive headphones in the first place.
 
The main reason some noobs are sometimes underwhelmed by their new expensive headphones is the hype they've fallen victim to.  They're expecting some amazing transformative experience and they aren't going to get it from any headphone or stereo.  The real reason most people listen to music is the emotion, and startlingly enough to most people here, that comes across just fine on ibuds if you haven't trained yourself to pick apart the technical deficiencies of the transducer instead of sitting back and enjoying the music.
 
The second reason some noobs are underwhelmed with expensive headphones is the diminishing returns.  Even for the transducers where you always get the most for your money, many people here are loath to admit how little they actually get in return for their their hard earned cash.  At a grand total of $13 the KSC-75s represent the largest return on investment I know of in the headphone world.  Everything else is down hill after that.  What else to you get for you money?  A little more natural FR and a little less distortion.  That's pretty much it.  If you don't get hooked on the upgrade path of always looking for something a little bit better (or at least more to your tastes) like most of us here do then that's likely all you'll ever need.
 
Of course despite what might of sounded like a lot of trashing, I've still have, have had, and will have in the future, plenty of headphones more expensive than the KSC-75s.  I'm hooked, and audio is my hobby.  Nobody needs a pleasure boat, a fast car, or fancy interior decorating either.  Pretty much everyone does need some sort of hobby though, if just to keep themselves sane.  I'm just complaining about the snobbery and elitism that often comes along with this particular hobby because I think people should police their own ranks.
 
That definition above is what lots of people think about audiophiles.  They think of snobs with $5000 power cords who debate their favorite classical composer and shun modern music as beneath them and only for the tin-ear masses.  That may not actually describe many people, but that's the stereotype.  That's why, despite the fact I've averages more than 8 posts a day on a forum like this over the last year and some change, I don't consider myself an audiophile and don't want to be know as one.

 

[jerg]

Quote:

Its mostly snobbery as far as I can tell.  It also goes back to the derogatory definition of a audiophile:
 
A normal person listens to the music through the equipment, an audiophile listens to the equipment through the music.
 
You can tell that's true for a lot of people because of all the "audiophile" labels that vie to convince them they sell albums with the best recording and mastering.  That's great if your tastes already lay in the classical and jazz direction (because you won't find much else from those labels...) but the number of people who recommend that some noob listen to different music when they turn out not to like their expensive headphones betrays their actual preferences.
 
"Broaden you musical tastes," they say.  Really, why don't they broaden their musical tastes.  Have some Dimmu Borgir and Exmortus.  No?  OK.  How about some vocaloids instead?  What you don't like that either and you don't want to listen to it?  OK, so you actually meant that I should keep the same breadth and shift my tastes to something else that you approve of, otherwise you'd be willing to expand yours right?  Its both asinine and deeply condescending.
 
 
Somehow, they fail to see this misses the whole point of buying expensive headphones in the first place.
 
The main reason some noobs are sometimes underwhelmed by their new expensive headphones is the hype they've fallen victim to.  They're expecting some amazing transformative experience and they aren't going to get it from any headphone or stereo.  The real reason most people listen to music is the emotion, and startlingly enough to most people here, that comes across just fine on ibuds if you haven't trained yourself to pick apart the technical deficiencies of the transducer instead of sitting back and enjoying the music.
 
The second reason some noobs are underwhelmed with expensive headphones is the diminishing returns.  Even for the transducers where you always get the most for your money, many people here are loath to admit how little they actually get in return for their their hard earned cash.  At a grand total of $13 the KSC-75s represent the largest return on investment I know of in the headphone world.  Everything else is down hill after that.  What else to you get for you money?  A little more natural FR and a little less distortion.  That's pretty much it.  If you don't get hooked on the upgrade path of always looking for something a little bit better (or at least more to your tastes) like most of us here do then that's likely all you'll ever need.
 
Of course despite what might of sounded like a lot of trashing, I've still have, have had, and will have in the future, plenty of headphones more expensive than the KSC-75s.  I'm hooked, and audio is my hobby.  Nobody needs a pleasure boat, a fast car, or fancy interior decorating either.  Pretty much everyone does need some sort of hobby though, if just to keep themselves sane.  I'm just complaining about the snobbery and elitism that often comes along with this particular hobby because I think people should police their own ranks.
 
That definition above is what lots of people think about audiophiles.  They think of snobs with $5000 power cords who debate their favorite classical composer and shun modern music as beneath them and only for the tin-ear masses.  That may not actually describe many people, but that's the stereotype.  That's why, despite the fact I've averages more than 8 posts a day on a forum like this over the last year and some change, I don't consider myself an audiophile and don't want to be know as one.

And nothing of value is lost .
 
In all seriousness though, good points.
 

 

[deadlylover]

Quote:

A large amount of sense.

Nice one dude.
 
I was in the high-end forum the other day(minute), and every single time I see the "Best Music for LCD-2" thread, I just keep thinking to myself, 'I really really shouldn't go in there and say "you're all doing it wrong"'.
 
There really isn't enough emphasis in the fact that all this gear makes only a small difference in sound. Don't tell anybody I said this, but no, even my mighty Stax Omega 2's cannot transform some very cute but not-so-good-at-singing girl into a perfect pitched angel who has descended from the heavens for the sole purpose of taking your breath away. She took my wallet instead, and ran with it.
 
At best, they remove some of the murderous intent, making your listening experience just a shade more pleasant, and that is all. The hype surrounding this hobby originally led me to believe otherwise, not that I'm complaining though, I was still pleasantly surprised in the end to see how much I wasn't missing in the first place.
 
I like to believe that people exaggerate differences in this hobby for the sole purpose of increased clarity in communication, but there are still times when I think I'm being too nice.
 
Queue:
"The differences are only big to audiophiles, you're not an audiophile, you're only a normal mainstream masses noob, oh, and your headphones aren't high end, no wonder you can't hear the huge difference between these two amps".
"Well no shizzle sherlock, you cannot hear the huge differences between these amps because your DAC is garbage, you know, garbage in garbage out, noob".
"Obviously, if you feed your DAC crap recordings, you won't be able to hear a big difference between DACs".
"Those good recordings are in mp3, try some lossless, that's why you still fail to hear a big difference with DACs".
"Go get your hearing checked, if you can't hear the difference between lossless and mp3, find another hobby".
"Mate, your hearing is fine, a chain is only as good as it's weakest link, remember?, try these pure silver cables".
"Stop trolling".
 
And the silver bullet: "It was just my opinion, 2c, YMMV, IME, horses for courses".
 
You just cannot win. Ya really do have to join 'em if you can't beat 'em, but kill me before that happens. I'd love me some death by loli, thanks in advance.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Nice one dude.
 
I was in the high-end forum the other day(minute), and every single time I see the "Best Music for LCD-2" thread, I just keep thinking to myself, 'I really really shouldn't go in there and say "you're all doing it wrong"'.
 
snip....
 
You just cannot win. Ya really do have to join 'em if you can't beat 'em, but kill me before that happens. I'd love me some death by loli, thanks in advance.

Somehow I managed to block that infernal thread from my memory.  Maybe I need to try reading it again for purposes of researching the opposition.  As far as I can tell its somewhere between ass backwards and learning your geometry from the Cthulhu Mythos.
 
As for death-by-lolis, I think someone needs to take step past the headphone musume guide/review books and create a whole set of personifications of different headphones like the OS-tans.  A half formed story line is already filling my head.  LCD-2-tan is a mild-mannered steampunk loli with a gadget for every contingency and some sort of berserk button.  O2MKI-tan is a shy goth-loli with extraordinary magical powers and a split personality (can't forget about the O2MKII) who's on the run from her sadistic sister (original) Omega-tan.
 
I really wish I could draw sometimes...

 

[RexAeterna]

Is my bad experience with the Omega due to my small expert knowledge? Would my taste change with time? Is there something like a “mature headphone taste”?
What is your experience? Has your taste changed with time?

no. you do not need to be an expert to know what sounds good to you or not. not everyone experiences is the same.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

no. you do not need to be an expert to know what sounds good to you or not. not everyone experiences is the same.

This x1000.
 
Don't let anyone tell you what sort of sound signature you should or shouldn't enjoy.

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

Nice one dude.
 
I was in the high-end forum the other day(minute), and every single time I see the "Best Music for LCD-2" thread, I just keep thinking to myself, 'I really really shouldn't go in there and say "you're all doing it wrong"'.

 
OMG you are kidding me... BTW I think Katy Perry's latest album sounds really good on the LCD-2s. 

 
 
 
But on the "training" and "mature tastes issue", I think it's just a matter of exposure. Go to meets. Go to more meets. Borrow stuff from friends. Set up your own private meets. This is the best way to realize gear that actually suits your own preferences. You'd all be surprised (or maybe not) at how many of the more vocal proponents of certain gear, when pressed, admit to little exposure beyond to what they have owned (or have some kind of friendly relationship to the manufacturer of such gear.)

 

[brat]

We all hear the same but there's a long way to uderstanding what we hear. And that is the "mature taste". Not everyone reaches.