[yangian]

What an absurd and inappropriate analogy. Nevertheless....

We live in a consumer driven economy - beyond electronics, can you name any type of product that doesn't have boutique sellers at prices logrhythmically above the norm? This is clearly your windmill to tilt at, but your expectation that the audio industry is somehow different than any other consumer driven industry is, IMO, not going to leave you satisfied.

I can't afford a Ferrari, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating one when someone drives it past, or be mad at the owner for purchasing it.

If you think it's improper, explain why. Otherwise, your claim of its improper does not make it inappropriate at all.
First, I don't mad at people who purchase those so-called summit products. Not even envy. I can afford a several thousands headphones, but it's too stupid to me to do such investment. (No offend to anyone. Only my personal view)
Second, I agree that this is a customer driven economy. I didn't start this thread. But I hope this thread could arose some customers on headfi. If no one purchases them, they'll do like those headphones on Amazon with 70-80 percents discount all over the year.
Thank you for conversation.

 

[bfreedma]

If you think it's improper, explain why. Otherwise, your claim of its improper does not make it inappropriate at all.
First, I don't mad at people who purchase those so-called summit products. Not even envy. I can afford a several thousands headphones, but it's too stupid to me to do such investment. (No offend to anyone. Only my personal view)
Second, I agree that this is a customer driven economy. I didn't start this thread. But I hope this thread could arose some customers on headfi.
Thank you for conversation.

Happy to discuss.

I do think comparing a potentially fatal disease with people's views on consumer electronics pricing is inappropriate. Might just be me.

These discussions about what we spend as individuals always remind me of a George Carlin joke about driving - "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

I'm including myself in that Carlin quote as well, so not directing it at you or anyone else individually.

 

[yangian]

Happy to discuss.

I do think comparing a potentially fatal disease with people's views on consumer electronics pricing is inappropriate. Might just be me.

These discussions about what we spend as individuals always remind me of a George Carlin joke about driving - "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

I'm including myself in that Carlin quote as well, so not directing it at you or anyone else individually.

haha You are absolutely right. We see things from different perspectives, emphasize different facets, and get different conclusion. That does not mean anyone is totally right or totally wrong. Actually I can appreciate that audio market have relatively higher price range, as I wrote before, since this is a small market relative to those like PC. Not everyone get hifi audio products. But...

For the metaphor, do not necessary bother with the fatal disease. Any illness is illness. It cannot be a disease just because many people have the illness. That's my point. But if you think what we are discussing is an illness is another story.

 

[VandyMan]

On the historical side, even if we go back to the 1990s (or the early-mid 2000s where I think this post wants to live), there were many "high end" or "ultra high end" headphone offerings that regularly ran over $500, including offerings from Sennheiser.
[trim]
Cans like the HD 600 and K701 were (and still are) great values, but they have never been the most expensive things on offer in the world of head-fi.

Stick to the old favourites; Dt880/990, HD600/650 and possibly AKG K7**

They were the 'summit fi' l(stupid marketing terminology exclusive to this forum),, the highest of HiFi and the best dynamics less than a decade ago

They are still 90% there today at a fraction of the price especially the Beyers. With design integrity and proven build quality (in Germany/Ireland)

I'm pretty sure I paid $500 for my HD-600s in 1999. Per an inflation calculator, that is $733 in 2017 buying power. I paid something like $800 ($1174 in 2017) for the Grado RS-1s at the same time. Maybe that price included the little battery powered amp, I can't recall. (I ended up returning them. Most painful to wear headphone ever and Grado had some build issues back then.) These were both the ToTL dynamic headphones from two of the most highly regarded companies at the time.

It is absolutely true that the cost of ToTL headphones has gone up faster than inflation and by a wide margin. Oddly, this has happened despite increased competition and an explosion in the size of the market. Those forces are supposed to lead to lower prices. In defense, many ToTL headphones now are more complex to design and manufacture, using very thin membranes, high tech magnets, CAD design, etc, etc. IMO, in many cases sound quality has improved significantly. That is not to say that there isn't some plain stupid pricing going on, ahem, Ultrasone.

On the other hand, for less than I spent in 1999, even unadjusted for inflation, you can now get the same or better headphones. I think that fact mitigates the high prices quite a bit.

Lastly, I'd rather jam a pencil in my ear than listen to a T1 v1. (Kidding. Mostly.)

 

[VandyMan]

I just noticed that Massdrop is selling the HD 6xx for $200. That would have been like selling the HD 600 for $135 in 1999. If only!

 

[bfreedma]

haha You are absolutely right. We see things from different perspectives, emphasize different facets, and get different conclusion. That does not mean anyone is totally right or totally wrong. Actually I can appreciate that audio market have relatively higher price range, as I wrote before, since this is a small market relative to those like PC. Not everyone get hifi audio products. But...

For the metaphor, do not necessary bother with the fatal disease. Any illness is illness. It cannot be a disease just because many people have the illness. That's my point. But if you think what we are discussing is an illness is another story.

No worries on the metaphor - just different interpretations. I've heard that stuff can happen on the internet

I enjoyed the discussion and understand your point of view.

 

[yangian]

I'm pretty sure I paid $500 for my HD-600s in 1999. Per an inflation calculator, that is $733 in 2017 buying power. I paid something like $800 ($1174 in 2017) for the Grado RS-1s at the same time. Maybe that price included the little battery powered amp, I can't recall. (I ended up returning them. Most painful to wear headphone ever and Grado had some build issues back then.) These were both the ToTL dynamic headphones from two of the most highly regarded companies at the time.

It is absolutely true that the cost of ToTL headphones has gone up faster than inflation and by a wide margin. Oddly, this has happened despite increased competition and an explosion in the size of the market. Those forces are supposed to lead to lower prices. In defense, many ToTL headphones now are more complex to design and manufacture, using very thin membranes, high tech magnets, CAD design, etc, etc. IMO, in many cases sound quality has improved significantly. That is not to say that there isn't some plain stupid pricing going on, ahem, Ultrasone.

On the other hand, for less than I spent in 1999, even unadjusted for inflation, you can now get the same or better headphones. I think that fact mitigates the high prices quite a bit.

Lastly, I'd rather jam a pencil in my ear than listen to a T1 v1. (Kidding. Mostly.)

Sincerely agree. This is a problem I saw in HiFi market and I also mention it in former post. This is one of the reason why I use words like unhealthy, illness, absurd.

BTW, we do not need to wait for several years to taste those "summit" products. Just wait for some while and a used HE1000 will be only ~$1200!! And you might still be able to negotiate the price. OR the better strategy, no one buy them and they'll give 70-80 discount sooner or later

 

[VandyMan]

Sincerely agree. This is a problem I saw in HiFi market and I also mention it in former post. This is one of the reason why I use words like unhealthy, illness, absurd.

I'm glad we agree on the basics, but I find that characterization rather extreme. I own a few very good headphones. I can afford them, they all sound better than my old HD-600, and I get a lot of pleasure listening to music thru them. Hardly an illness or unhealthy. There are headphones that I feel are overpriced and I would not buy them. I'm fine with letting the market decide.

 

[yangian]

I'm glad we agree on the basics, but I find that characterization rather extreme. I own a few very good headphones. I can afford them, they all sound better than my old HD-600, and I get a lot of pleasure listening to music thru them. Hardly an illness or unhealthy. There are headphones that I feel are overpriced and I would not buy them. I'm fine with letting the market decide.

Let me clarify. Let me start with an experience.
I ever A/B repeated Xduoo X3 with Fiio X5iii. To be honest, I can hardly tell the difference. X5iii might be very marginally better than X3, but with >3 times price.
HOWEVER, it's obvious X5iii has much better build quality and function than X3 and Xduoo has almost no any custom service.
So I didn't mean a headphone cannot be sold a few thousand $. If it does has superb SQ and BQ and great custom service etc., everyone can see and we appreciate what we paid. However, some products have bad BQ, bad custom services etc. and maybe a good SQ, and try to sell a extreme high price. That's ridiculous and nonsense.
Anyway, yes, market decides. If something used was sold a lot cheaper than the new price, that definitely means something is wrong.

 

[Currawong]

yangian, did you ever read Jason Stoddard's Schiit Happened story? He has a chapter discussing why they never have sales on their products, nor discount them.

DAPs are a good example. I have an AK380 here, as well as quite a few others, and only with well-recorded music is it clearly sonically better than any of the other DAPs (ignoring features and other factors). For a lot of music, it isn't. I think like the story of the guy who had bought a high-end system only to demo Christmas music on it to his friends (because he'd read or been told that it was a good recording!) is really the main issue -- that is, getting what will give you sufficient satisfaction for the music you enjoy, instead of what someone else lusts after because it is expensive and/or shiny.

Personally, most of my listening is done in the car to and from work, with my iPhone the source for my car radio, and it's one of the times I enjoy listening the most.

 

[yangian]

yangian, did you ever read Jason Stoddard's Schiit Happened story? He has a chapter discussing why they never have sales on their products, nor discount them.

DAPs are a good example. I have an AK380 here, as well as quite a few others, and only with well-recorded music is it clearly sonically better than any of the other DAPs (ignoring features and other factors). For a lot of music, it isn't. I think like the story of the guy who had bought a high-end system only to demo Christmas music on it to his friends (because he'd read or been told that it was a good recording!) is really the main issue -- that is, getting what will give you sufficient satisfaction for the music you enjoy, instead of what someone else lusts after because it is expensive and/or shiny.

Personally, most of my listening is done in the car to and from work, with my iPhone the source for my car radio, and it's one of the times I enjoy listening the most.

I knew Schiit's story. They are convinced they sell the cheapest staff. That's the model that all companies should follow, I hope.

When I did the comparison, I use some flac file. They are not 24/192, but definitely better than mp3. I've already learned from my personal experience that the most important is the music files, not DAc, not amp., not phones.

BTW, curious why you don't use your high end DAP to listen to music on your car?

 

[Dobrescu George]

yangian, did you ever read Jason Stoddard's Schiit Happened story? He has a chapter discussing why they never have sales on their products, nor discount them.

DAPs are a good example. I have an AK380 here, as well as quite a few others, and only with well-recorded music is it clearly sonically better than any of the other DAPs (ignoring features and other factors). For a lot of music, it isn't. I think like the story of the guy who had bought a high-end system only to demo Christmas music on it to his friends (because he'd read or been told that it was a good recording!) is really the main issue -- that is, getting what will give you sufficient satisfaction for the music you enjoy, instead of what someone else lusts after because it is expensive and/or shiny.

Personally, most of my listening is done in the car to and from work, with my iPhone the source for my car radio, and it's one of the times I enjoy listening the most.

I can feel you there about not having enough time to listen music - my listening time is when I buy groceries and when I take trips to town, usually less than 2 hours per day... Lots of work to do...

 

[yangian]

I can feel you there about not having enough time to listen music - my listening time is when I buy groceries and when I take trips to town, usually less than 2 hours per day... Lots of work to do...

Averagely I listen to music more than six hours a day.

BTW, remind StanD's signature, sth. like: Someone use music to listen to gears; and I use gears to listen to music. I enjoy what I'm listening now.

 

[Dobrescu George]

Averagely I listen to music more than six hours a day.

BTW, remind StanD's signature, sth. like: Someone use music to listen to gears; and I use gears to listen to music. I enjoy what I'm listening now.

Deadlines!

Deadlines everywhere!!!

Also, I tend to listen to music through good equipment. I use EQ with anything that requires it, music is most important, if any equipment has any problems, then I will compensate for it!

 

[yangian]

Deadlines!

Deadlines everywhere!!!

Also, I tend to listen to music through good equipment. I use EQ with anything that requires it, music is most important, if any equipment has any problems, then I will compensate for it!

I never use EQ. EQ to me is just like a women who make up. Don't like it.