Master Tidal on PC to Dragonfly Red to TX-SR373 Onkyo reciever to AKG K7xx. Would a headphone amp be better than the receiver?
Aug 19, 2017 at 6:58 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 16

Basshead Paul

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Would there be any improvement in sound if I replace the TX-SR373 Onkyo receiver with a desktop headphone amp?

Power specs for the Onkyo TX-SR373 receiver:
All Channels:
155 W/Ch (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD, 1 Channel Driven)
80 W/Ch (8 Ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, FTC)

(Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise):
0.06% (20 Hz–20 kHz, 8 Ohms, 1 Channel Driven, 50 W)

Input Sensitivity and Impedance: 200 mV / 47k Ohms (Line)

Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 98 dB (Line, IHF-A)

Speaker Impedance: 6 ohms–16 ohms

The Dragonfly Red dac/amp outputs 2.1v and has a line out mode when put on 100% software and hardware volume, which is how I use it when feeding into the Onkyo receiver.

The AKG K7xx headphones are 62 ohm with a sensitivity of 105 db/V

Basically I'm wondering if there's any reason for me to buy a desktop headphone amp. Maybe it would be better at driving my headphones than the headphone out on my receiver (combined with the Dragonfly Red)?
 

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Aug 19, 2017 at 7:08 PM Post #2 of 16
Would there be any improvement in sound if I replace the TX-SR373 Onkyo receiver with a desktop headphone amp?

I included an image of all the power specs for the Onkyo receiver. The Dragonfly Red dac/amp outputs 2.1v and has a line out mode when put on 100% software and hardware volume, which is how I use it when feeding into the Onkyo receiver.

The AKG K7xx headphones are 62 ohm with a sensitivity of 105 db/V

Basically I'm wondering if there's any reason for me to buy a desktop headphone amp. Maybe it would be better at driving my headphones than the headphone out on my receiver (combined with the Dragonfly Red)?
I don't see the specs image :frowning2:
 
Aug 19, 2017 at 8:15 PM Post #4 of 16
I don't think those specs include the Headphone Out jack. The K7xx seem easy to drive with low impedance and high sensitivity so I'm sure your receiver drives them alright. On the other hand, the receiver is made with speakers in mind so it would be common for the headphone amp and DAC to be somewhat of an afterthought.

If you we're going to grab a dedicated headphone setup, I'd suggest looking at the Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo
 
Aug 20, 2017 at 12:01 AM Post #5 of 16
I don't think those specs include the Headphone Out jack. The K7xx seem easy to drive with low impedance and high sensitivity so I'm sure your receiver drives them alright. On the other hand, the receiver is made with speakers in mind so it would be common for the headphone amp and DAC to be somewhat of an afterthought.

If you we're going to grab a dedicated headphone setup, I'd suggest looking at the Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo

Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm about to go read up on your suggestions (Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo). I really like the dac on the Dragonfly Red, it's the only reason I bought it, so ideally I'm looking for a standalone desktop headphone amp with no dac. Also, would your suggestions work well with Sennheiser hd650? I'm getting an hd650 for Christmas, so I'm really only using the AKG K7xx temporarily. My end game setup is the Senn hd650, using the Dragonfly Red for it's dac, feeding into whichever amp I end up buying.

Also, from what I've read, most receivers use the same amplification components for the headphone out as everything else. Only the much higher end receivers have a separate headphone amp built in. I could be wrong about that, it's only what I've read while randomly looking around the web.
 
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Aug 20, 2017 at 12:32 AM Post #6 of 16
I don't think those specs include the Headphone Out jack. The K7xx seem easy to drive with low impedance and high sensitivity so I'm sure your receiver drives them alright. On the other hand, the receiver is made with speakers in mind so it would be common for the headphone amp and DAC to be somewhat of an afterthought.

If you we're going to grab a dedicated headphone setup, I'd suggest looking at the Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo

Note that AKG specs their headphones in "dB/V" not "dB/mW" - it lets them get bigger numbers out of the same spec. The K7-- series are fairly low sensitivity for a dynamic headphone, and not long ago were revered as some sort of unslayable beast requiring at least 1.21 jiggawatts just to make a quiet little "burp" happen (so maybe there's some hyperbole in there...). Here's Tyll's measurements of the K7XX (if you meant another 7-- series family member he's got those too) - https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK7XX.pdf

Showing .64 mW (and .206V) to reach 90 dBSPL at 66 ohms. That's "somewhat worse" than a lot of other dynamic headphones. It isn't "unslayable beast" by any means (and unless AKG has revised things heavily with the 712 or 7XX, these still have a maximum rated input of 200 mW), but it does require more power than is typical (especially vs more modern designs that target mobile use heavily). A decent headphone amplifier should be able to do at least 10 mW/ch though, which is enough to get you up to around 102-103 dB (I'm lazy so that isn't dead-to-rights on the numbers), and may feel a bit "stretched" for dynamics depending on what you're listening to ++ how loud you want to listen. More robust amplifiers tend to have no problem with 100mW+ which will easily get you to 110 dB without much fuss. So a lot of amplifiers can probably drive these just fine (and from when I owned K701, I never encountered a dedicated headphone amp that had issues with them, but some portables, and some built-in headphone jacks weren't as happy to see that load vs something with higher sensitivity, like Grado or Denon headphones).

So what about the receiver? Who knows. The specs you've provided mean absolutely nothing in the context of this question, and its likely Onkyo A) doesn't provide headphone output specs and B) the headphone output isn't actually tied into the main amplifiers (its likely running on its own separate op-amp/chip-amp circuit so that it can be cut out from the processing feeding the main amps). All isn't lost there, but there's a chance that it isn't "great" as a headphone amplifier (e.g. very little power out, maybe weirdness with impedance, etc). On the other hand, it might be pretty good (no joke my second favorite dynamic headphone driver is part of a 60lb+ integrated amp - so yeah "they're out there" but there was literally NOTHING in that amp's specs about the headphone amp (I ultimately gave in to curiosity and opened it up and learned its a dedicated, op-amp based circuit that sits after the pre-amp section) so it was a completely unknown quantity from its documentation). But we just don't have the information to know, and a lot of "headphone centric" review sites really don't seem interested in talking about hi-fi gear with built-in headphone jacks or anything that isn't "desktop hi-fi" or "personal audio" these days. As far as "better" that's an entirely different discussion, because that's value-weighted (e.g. you're asking us to tell you what you'll feel).

Some things I'd potentially wonder about with a receiver (because I've had issues with this in the past):

- Noise floor. A lot of hi-fi/speaker components don't worry about noise floor as obsessively as headphone audio components, mostly because the sensitivities on speakers (and the distance from the listener to them, and the room's noise floor, etc) are a lot lower, so you don't have to worry so much about getting rid of hiss. So if there's background hiss/noise when listening to your 7XXs, that's a good indication the noise floor is relatively high (and that background noise should be expected to get worse with higher sensitivity models), and a dedicated amplifier may alleviate that (why "may" - because not all dedicated amps are created equal).

- Channel balance. If the volume control isn't done awesome, and the gain structure is wacky, its conceivable that you may have an obnoxious scenario wherein the left or right channel plays louder than the other at the volume level you'd like to listen at. This can be the case with some dedicated amps too, but again if that's a problem, you may want to consider another amp.

- Power draw/waste heat. A lot of AVRs (especially newer ones with more computer stuff in them) tend to use a good deal of power just to be "on" - like 80-100W or more. That's pretty wasteful (imho) when you're just driving headphones, and beyond that it may lead to extra heat in your listening room that you didn't want to deal with. By contrast some headphone amps are extremely efficient, and you can easily get into sub-10W equipment that will drive your headphones painfully/dangerously loud. Or go nuts with Class A devices that still don't use that much power in absolute terms (e.g. a Class A headphone amplifier may draw 40-60W - that's "a lot" for what its doing, but 40-60W is not "a lot" compared to some appliances in your home, and that's heaps better than dealing with an AVR or a Class A speaker amplifier).

Something you could do to investigate this a bit without buying anything - try plugging the cans straight into the Dragonfly (its meant to be a headphone amp too), or into other devices you have with headphone outputs, and listening if there's any big differences with the sound. See what you think. If something sounds "a lot better" then maybe the Onkyo isn't the best candidate. If you end up still liking the Onkyo after trying comparisons with some other devices, live happily ever after with it. :)


EDIT - Guess I waited forever to hit "reply" and you replied more, so I'll reply some to that:

Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm about to go read up on your suggestions (Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo). I really like the dac on the Dragonfly Red, it's the only reason I bought it, so ideally I'm looking for a standalone desktop headphone amp with no dac. Also, would your suggestions work well with Sennheiser hd650? I'm getting an hd650 for Christmas, so I'm really only using the AKG K7xx temporarily. My end game setup is the Senn hd650, using the Dragonfly Red for it's dac, feeding into whichever amp I end up buying.
The HD 650 are a different animal from the K7XX - they're higher impedance but also higher sensitivity. Lots of amplifiers are geared towards "universal support" for headphones, but the HD 650 (and other high-Z cans) can also work with amplifiers that are more tailored to them (e.g. OTLs) so that might be worth thinking about, but then you'd run into a compatibility kerfuffle with the K7XX as some OTLs really won't like the current demands of the AKGs. A lot of decent solid-state amps will run everything just fine though, so that's something to think about.

Also, from what I've read, most receivers use the same amplification components for the headphone out as everything else. Only the much higher end receivers have a separate headphone amp built in. I could be wrong about that, it's only what I've read while randomly looking around the web.

Most do not, at least nowadays. Historically stereo amplifiers and receivers would run their amplifiers through pretty high value resistors (usually 300-600 ohms) to connect headphones, but modern designs tend to have "separate headphone amp built in" for signal routing and better compatibility (a lot of switching amplifiers don't like being bridged, for example). Usually this is done with an opamp-based circuit (queue people going "its a cmoy!!") but some use chip amps for more robust output or whatever other reason (it seems arbitrary in some cases). 2-channel gear that's still kicking around may do it "old style" and run resistors off the main amps, but that's come under fire with by marketeers that promote this "rule of 8" idea to sell dedicated headphone amps more than anything else.
 
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Aug 20, 2017 at 12:51 AM Post #7 of 16
Note that AKG specs their headphones in "dB/V" not "dB/mW" - it lets them get bigger numbers out of the same spec. The K7-- series are fairly low sensitivity for a dynamic headphone, and not long ago were revered as some sort of unslayable beast requiring at least 1.21 jiggawatts just to make a quiet little "burp" happen (so maybe there's some hyperbole in there...). Here's Tyll's measurements of the K7XX (if you meant another 7-- series family member he's got those too) - https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK7XX.pdf

Showing .64 mW (and .206V) to reach 90 dBSPL at 66 ohms. That's "somewhat worse" than a lot of other dynamic headphones. It isn't "unslayable beast" by any means (and unless AKG has revised things heavily with the 712 or 7XX, these still have a maximum rated input of 200 mW), but it does require more power than is typical (especially vs more modern designs that target mobile use heavily). A decent headphone amplifier should be able to do at least 10 mW/ch though, which is enough to get you up to around 102-103 dB (I'm lazy so that isn't dead-to-rights on the numbers), and may feel a bit "stretched" for dynamics depending on what you're listening to ++ how loud you want to listen. More robust amplifiers tend to have no problem with 100mW+ which will easily get you to 110 dB without much fuss. So a lot of amplifiers can probably drive these just fine (and from when I owned K701, I never encountered a dedicated headphone amp that had issues with them, but some portables, and some built-in headphone jacks weren't as happy to see that load vs something with higher sensitivity, like Grado or Denon headphones).

So what about the receiver? Who knows. The specs you've provided mean absolutely nothing in the context of this question, and its likely Onkyo A) doesn't provide headphone output specs and B) the headphone output isn't actually tied into the main amplifiers (its likely running on its own separate op-amp/chip-amp circuit so that it can be cut out from the processing feeding the main amps). All isn't lost there, but there's a chance that it isn't "great" as a headphone amplifier (e.g. very little power out, maybe weirdness with impedance, etc). On the other hand, it might be pretty good (no joke my second favorite dynamic headphone driver is part of a 60lb+ integrated amp - so yeah "they're out there" but there was literally NOTHING in that amp's specs about the headphone amp (I ultimately gave in to curiosity and opened it up and learned its a dedicated, op-amp based circuit that sits after the pre-amp section) so it was a completely unknown quantity from its documentation). But we just don't have the information to know, and a lot of "headphone centric" review sites really don't seem interested in talking about hi-fi gear with built-in headphone jacks or anything that isn't "desktop hi-fi" or "personal audio" these days. As far as "better" that's an entirely different discussion, because that's value-weighted (e.g. you're asking us to tell you what you'll feel).

Some things I'd potentially wonder about with a receiver (because I've had issues with this in the past):

- Noise floor. A lot of hi-fi/speaker components don't worry about noise floor as obsessively as headphone audio components, mostly because the sensitivities on speakers (and the distance from the listener to them, and the room's noise floor, etc) are a lot lower, so you don't have to worry so much about getting rid of hiss. So if there's background hiss/noise when listening to your 7XXs, that's a good indication the noise floor is relatively high (and that background noise should be expected to get worse with higher sensitivity models), and a dedicated amplifier may alleviate that (why "may" - because not all dedicated amps are created equal).

- Channel balance. If the volume control isn't done awesome, and the gain structure is wacky, its conceivable that you may have an obnoxious scenario wherein the left or right channel plays louder than the other at the volume level you'd like to listen at. This can be the case with some dedicated amps too, but again if that's a problem, you may want to consider another amp.

- Power draw/waste heat. A lot of AVRs (especially newer ones with more computer stuff in them) tend to use a good deal of power just to be "on" - like 80-100W or more. That's pretty wasteful (imho) when you're just driving headphones, and beyond that it may lead to extra heat in your listening room that you didn't want to deal with. By contrast some headphone amps are extremely efficient, and you can easily get into sub-10W equipment that will drive your headphones painfully/dangerously loud. Or go nuts with Class A devices that still don't use that much power in absolute terms (e.g. a Class A headphone amplifier may draw 40-60W - that's "a lot" for what its doing, but 40-60W is not "a lot" compared to some appliances in your home, and that's heaps better than dealing with an AVR or a Class A speaker amplifier).

Something you could do to investigate this a bit without buying anything - try plugging the cans straight into the Dragonfly (its meant to be a headphone amp too), or into other devices you have with headphone outputs, and listening if there's any big differences with the sound. See what you think. If something sounds "a lot better" then maybe the Onkyo isn't the best candidate. If you end up still liking the Onkyo after trying comparisons with some other devices, live happily ever after with it. :)


EDIT - Guess I waited forever to hit "reply" and you replied more, so I'll reply some to that:

Wow thanks for your reply! It helps quite a bit. I agree the AKG K7xx are harder to drive than they first appear, definitely.

It's a shame it isn't easier to find specific information on headphone outs on receivers. Maybe one of these days I'll try to figure out a way to connect headphones to the speaker outs on receivers, but I suspect that could damage my headphones if I'm not careful.

I'm fairly new to headphone equipment, but the overall impression I'm getting is that headphone amps are better for headphones, seeing as they're made with headphones in mind (as opposed to receivers which are made with speakers in mind.)
 
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Aug 20, 2017 at 1:10 AM Post #8 of 16
Wow thanks for your reply! It helps quite a bit. I agree the AKG K7xx are harder to drive than they first appear, definitely.

It's a shame it isn't easier to find specific information on headphone outs on receivers. Maybe one of these days I'll try to figure out a way to connect headphones to the speaker outs on receivers, but I suspect that could damage my headphones if I'm not careful.

Could damage the receiver and blow up your hearing if you're not careful too. Those are (for the headphones) very high voltage, and a lot of amplifiers don't love being bridged to SE. If you ran differential wiring (cut up the wires on your headphones so you've got +/- for each driver - yes this is physical modification) it'd be "safe" for the receiver, but it'd be so easy to blow the headphone drivers to pieces (and your hearing is gone too) that way.

I'm fairly new to headphone equipment, but the overall impression I'm getting is that headphone amps are better for headphones, seeing as they're made with headphones in mind (as opposed to receivers which are made with speakers in mind.)

The marketing is working great then - you're perfectly on track. /s

This is honestly a "myth" that came out sometime in the 1990s or early 2000s when niche companies wanted to start selling "headphone amplifiers" and needed a marketing pitch that the mass market could digest. Frankly, a quality receiver (or integrated amp, or surround sound receiver, or separate amp, or whatever) is designed with good audio performance in mind. It isn't "just for speakers" or "just for headphones." Now, don't get me wrong - there's a lot of cheap and bad gear out there that is the result of never-ending "cost downs" by marketing and management wanting to hit a certain price point with no consideration for performance (and most modern AVRs fit into this, and tend to be more interested in playing logo bingo and buzzword compliance than hitting high performance targets), but going into generalizations that "2ch/HT gear can't do headphones" or "headphone gear is mutually exclusive from speakers" is just too far imho/ime. Lots of quality "big rig" gear will do fantastic things with headphones (and there's some huge threads on Head-Fi devoted to those discussions), but usually that stuff gets pretty expensive and pretty big, which gets a little ridiculous if you just want to hook headphones up to it, whereas there's plenty of more compact desktop components that can be had for relatively less money and that will take up much less space/power/etc. I'm not really coming down on either "side" here - there's good gear all around, and it's hard to make huge generalizations that hold up to scrutiny. If you're exclusively running headphones, I probably wouldn't go out and buy a $1000+ IA, but then again, if it sounds good and works for you, what's the problem?
 
Aug 20, 2017 at 7:37 AM Post #9 of 16
Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm about to go read up on your suggestions (Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo). I really like the dac on the Dragonfly Red, it's the only reason I bought it, so ideally I'm looking for a standalone desktop headphone amp with no dac. Also, would your suggestions work well with Sennheiser hd650? I'm getting an hd650 for Christmas, so I'm really only using the AKG K7xx temporarily. My end game setup is the Senn hd650, using the Dragonfly Red for it's dac, feeding into whichever amp I end up buying.

Also, from what I've read, most receivers use the same amplification components for the headphone out as everything else. Only the much higher end receivers have a separate headphone amp built in. I could be wrong about that, it's only what I've read while randomly looking around the web.
The lack of info on the receiver headphone out would lead me to suggest just picking up a Magni 2 for 100 bucks. I don't think you could find anything that powers the 650 better for any less money. It also looks sexy on any desk and has a nice white power light as opposed to so many other companies that insist on obnoxious colored power lights (small detail I know, but between the power led, American made chassis, and solid built quality, the Magni 2 is an amazing amp for the price). Of course I also love recommending the balanced Jotunheim but that's significantly more expensive especially factoring in a new cable and Magni 2 is the perfect place to start!
 
Aug 20, 2017 at 2:01 PM Post #10 of 16
Would there be any improvement in sound if I replace the TX-SR373 Onkyo receiver with a desktop headphone amp?
The Dragonfly Red dac/amp outputs 2.1v and has a line out mode when put on 100% software and hardware volume, which is how I use it when feeding into the Onkyo receiver.
The AKG K7xx headphones are 62 ohm with a sensitivity of 105 db/V
Basically I'm wondering if there's any reason for me to buy a desktop headphone amp. Maybe it would be better at driving my headphones than the headphone out on my receiver (combined with the Dragonfly Red)?
Have you plugged the AKG K7XX directly into the DragonFly Red?
Is there a difference in sound quality, better or worse?
 
Aug 20, 2017 at 2:26 PM Post #11 of 16
Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm about to go read up on your suggestions (Schiit Modi 2 and Magni 2, Fulla 2, or O2 combo). I really like the dac on the Dragonfly Red, it's the only reason I bought it, so ideally I'm looking for a standalone desktop headphone amp with no dac. Also, would your suggestions work well with Sennheiser hd650? I'm getting an hd650 for Christmas, so I'm really only using the AKG K7xx temporarily. My end game setup is the Senn hd650, using the Dragonfly Red for it's dac, feeding into whichever amp I end up buying.
Also, from what I've read, most receivers use the same amplification components for the headphone out as everything else. Only the much higher end receivers have a separate headphone amp built in. I could be wrong about that, it's only what I've read while randomly looking around the web.
Yes, most receivers use the same speaker amplifier(s), to also drive the headphone jack.
(As it keeps manufacturing costs down).
Because the same amplifer(s) is used to drive the headphone jack, it usually gives the headphone jack a high output impedance (Ohms), which is not desirable for lower Ohm headphones.
Higher impedance headphones (250-Ohm to 600-Ohm), like the 300-Ohm Sennheiser HD650, work better with the headphone jack on receivers, then lower Ohm headphones.
So your Onkyo might be decent enough at driving the HD650.
 
Aug 20, 2017 at 9:38 PM Post #12 of 16
Have you plugged the AKG K7XX directly into the DragonFly Red?
Is there a difference in sound quality, better or worse?

I have plugged it in directly to the DFR. It has enough power to drive them fully, I believe, but the DFR doesn't have very good bass slam/punch to it, overall. The main reason I want a dedicated amp to use with the DFR is to improve the bass sound. The DFR is great for everything else other than bass, thanks to its awesome DAC chip and minimum phase filter.
 
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Aug 20, 2017 at 9:45 PM Post #13 of 16
Yes, most receivers use the same speaker amplifier(s), to also drive the headphone jack.
(As it keeps manufacturing costs down).
Because the same amplifer(s) is used to drive the headphone jack, it usually gives the headphone jack a high output impedance (Ohms), which is not desirable for lower Ohm headphones.
Higher impedance headphones (250-Ohm to 600-Ohm), like the 300-Ohm Sennheiser HD650, work better with the headphone jack on receivers, then lower Ohm headphones.
So your Onkyo might be decent enough at driving the HD650.

Thanks! I wasn't aware of the ohm differences before. Good to know!
 
Aug 20, 2017 at 9:46 PM Post #14 of 16
I don't know how you ended up with AKG K7XX. I had the K701, and it didn't have much of bottom end. Also, like mentioned above, it's not all that sensitive(doesn't get that loud as others in the same volume level). You maybe thinking bass is lacking because the amp, but like I've mentioned, the bass is lacking(it's the characteristics of the headphones) especially if you are a bass-head.
 
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Aug 20, 2017 at 9:54 PM Post #15 of 16
I don't know how you ended up with AKG K7XX. I had the K701, and it didn't have much of bottom end. Also, like mentioned above, it's not all that sensitive(doesn't get that loud as others in the same volume level). You maybe thinking bass is lacking because the amp, but like I've mentioned, the bass is lacking(it's the characteristics of the headphones) especially if you are a bass-head.

I really should change my name. I'm not really a bass-head anymore (that was years ago). I still appreciate good bass though, and from what I've heard the AKG K7xx can produce quality bass if amped properly. You're right though, bass isn't the best quality of the K7xx. They have more of a neutral sound with excellent sound stage and detail, making it great for natural sounding music, classical, jazz, acoustic, etc. I have other headphones that are excellent for bass that I use when listening to bass-centered genres.
 

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