Objective2 Mini-Review and Discussion
Apr 10, 2012 at 8:05 AM Post #196 of 389
Wasn't that story from V himself? Besides O2 measures better than B22 so where's the logic? $1600 maybe for kickass overkill prebuilt version.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/568705/review-nwavguys-o2-diy-amplifier/1440 - that guy said Beta22 is better so I guess it depends.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 8:06 AM Post #197 of 389
Surely it would be wiser to spend several months comparing both amps before selling one ? Its not as if you can go out and buy another B22 at the drop of a hat. V spends a lot of keystrokes discussing things like expectation bias and placebo - given the hype around the 02, it would be foolish to think those same factors dont come into play with his own amp. I've already seen some outrageous claims for the performance of the ODAC and ODA from people who have heard neither - V has his own cult and they may be guilty of the same sins their Messiah spends each week railing against from on high. 
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 8:18 AM Post #198 of 389


Quote:
So to enjoy O2 you have to be a Voldemort fanatic or listen with closed eyes? Yup, got it.
 
I liked to read his blog even though I wasn't agreeing with him on some aspects and he's right about lot of things, particularly some overpriced products being pushed here and "high-end" in general. But his propaganda went too far and I see that if you want attract attention you need to be loud and obnoxious and people with no experience will follow you. I have no reasons to not believe in Headfonia review. It seems like a lot of people who're defending O2 are those who didn't hear it themselves or upgraded from integrated sound card and had no experience with more expensive stuff.
 
If O2 would measure like is right now and it would cost $1k to build it nobody would care about those graphs and the interest would be much lower. People got something for cheap, believed in that this's best amp and will defend that without hearing other gear because they can't afford something better. When they will compare it to something else you will find it in sale section of the forum. It doesn't take away from O2 that's probably a good amp.
 
I didn't find one review saying that someone prefered O2 to other "high-end" amp. And if we're talking about measurements why there's so little interest on Head-Fi with the The Wire? It looks better than O2. The creator isn't a blowhard so no groupies for him?



Whoa, partner- you seem to be making some pretty broad statements about an amp you havent even heard ?? Happy to hear otherwise. 
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 8:52 AM Post #199 of 389
I didn't say it's bad, I said it's probably good, but that witch hunt is driving me crazy.
 
"If you don't like O2 then you don't like your gear" argument is very funny. If O2 measures better than B22, then the guy who said that he didn't hear the difference should be called ******** by the same people who defend O2. He was supposed to hear the difference! It's double standard, you can't win.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 9:05 AM Post #201 of 389
 
Quote:
Wasn't that story from V himself? Besides O2 measures better than B22 so where's the logic? $1600 maybe for kickass overkill prebuilt version.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/568705/review-nwavguys-o2-diy-amplifier/1440 - that guy said Beta22 is better so I guess it depends.


Well there was a big discussion over which one measured better, since no one had ever measured the B22 as far as I know to the extent of the O2 measurements, and definitely not with a DScope. Someone said the B22 measured better, and I have no trouble believing that. I just have serious doubts many (if any) would be able to tell them apart in a DBT, and this particular used didn't in a sighted test.
The story was not from V, maybe he wrote something similar, but this was in a Head-Fi thread about the O2 that got closed (I know that's not being very specific 
wink.gif
).
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 9:18 AM Post #202 of 389
 
Quote:
I've already seen some outrageous claims for the performance of the ODAC and ODA from people who have heard neither


This would not have happened during April 1, would it? I read some pretty things that day, like "DScope limit".
 


"If you don't like O2 then you don't like your gear" argument is very funny. If O2 measures better than B22, then the guy who said that he didn't hear the difference should be called ******** by the same people who defend O2. He was supposed to hear the difference! It's double standard, you can't win.

 
Ah, but that's where the beauty of audibility comes in hand! Let's say the O2 has 0.01% THD+N, and the B22 has a stupendous 0.0001%. The B22 obviously measures better. But as far as I know anything below 0.5% THD+N is already completely inaudible, and in reality both amps are much below that treshold. So even if one measures better than the other, it's irrelevant because both measure so well that they would be indistinguishable to us in regards to distortion. Since AFAIK all measurements for the O2 for deviations from wire-with-gain are well below these tresholds, and if the for the B22 they are as well (again, not sure, but let's assume), then I expect them to be indistinguishable.
But to be fair, others with both amps also said they could hear a difference, preferring the B22. My standpoint is this: if someone can tell them both apart with a decent certainty (>80%) in a proper blind test, I'll admit that indeed there is some sort of interference that has not been measured that's causing the difference because otherwise this was a huge statistical improbability.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 11:38 AM Post #203 of 389
Quote:
I didn't find one review saying that someone prefered O2 to other "high-end" amp. And if we're talking about measurements why there's so little interest on Head-Fi with the The Wire? It looks better than O2. The creator isn't a blowhard so no groupies for him?

 
MrSlim covered the main points regarding popularity of The Wire, which is of course an excellent higher-end (and very minimal, and tiny!) design that beats the O2 in performance.  It's really hard to get PCBs now, and the O2 is cheaper.  A kind of third issue is that builders are on their own regarding a volume control, gain, chassis, and so on, so it's not as convenient as a headphone amp without some more effort on the builder's part.  The Wire itself is more like just a really good output stage.
 
The other deal is that it's not clear that The Wire's higher performance actually translates into something audibly better.  Some people hear differences (when they are looking at the two different amps and know which it is they're listening to), but as has been discussed ad nauseum, this isn't particularly an indication that such a small difference is audible.  Even if you don't believe in that, most of the V "cult" or whatever you want to call it, does think that that's true, hence the following.
 
I do agree there's a lot of ridiculous language flying around, and the accusations of "you must like amp X more because it clearly has more distortion" would probably start grating on anybody, especially since it's kind of a patronizing viewpoint to take (sometimes that may be a true statement though, but that's besides the point).  There are also a lot of inflated estimates of the Beta22 cost!
 
 
 
 
Surely it would be wiser to spend several months comparing both amps before selling one ? Its not as if you can go out and buy another B22 at the drop of a hat. V spends a lot of keystrokes discussing things like expectation bias and placebo - given the hype around the 02, it would be foolish to think those same factors dont come into play with his own amp. I've already seen some outrageous claims for the performance of the ODAC and ODA from people who have heard neither - V has his own cult and they may be guilty of the same sins their Messiah spends each week railing against from on high. 

 
I think there's an important distinction here to be made.  Certainly there's expectation bias and placebo for listeners listening to any amp, including the O2.  Even if it weren't very low distortion, many people would hear it that way because they probably expect it to, given the graphs and so on.
 
But I'm not sure exactly which you're talking about with respect to "outrageous claims" (hopefully they weren't regarding the April 1st data), but it should be fair enough to describe the sound (lack of sound signature imparted) by devices that are assumed to follow the ideal response very closely.  That's based on an interpretation of theory, previous studies, previous results, and so on.  It is not at all influenced by placebo or expectation bias—nobody's even listening to anything yet.
 
As far as I can tell, the objections to theory seem to stem from "but that's not what I (or somebody else) heard," which is not very strong in terms of evidence unless we can be certain that the reported perception was not influenced by any undue factors such as expectation bias.  I don't get the reference by many to what "true scientists" would think, if they themselves don't believe in the necessity of the most basic experimental controls.  Usually that involves blind testing as a minimum requirement to start with, but if you can somehow eliminate all those factors in a different way, go ahead.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM Post #204 of 389


Quote:
So to enjoy O2 you have to be a Voldemort fanatic or listen with closed eyes? Yup, got it.
 
I liked to read his blog even though I wasn't agreeing with him on some aspects and he's right about lot of things, particularly some overpriced products being pushed here and "high-end" in general. But his propaganda went too far and I see that if you want attract attention you need to be loud and obnoxious and people with no experience will follow you. I have no reasons to not believe in Headfonia review. It seems like a lot of people who're defending O2 are those who didn't hear it themselves or upgraded from integrated sound card and had no experience with more expensive stuff.
 
If O2 would measure like is right now and it would cost $1k to build it nobody would care about those graphs and the interest would be much lower. People got something for cheap, believed in that this's best amp and will defend that without hearing other gear because they can't afford something better. When they will compare it to something else you will find it in sale section of the forum. It doesn't take away from O2 that's probably a good amp.
 
I didn't find one review saying that someone prefered O2 to other "high-end" amp. And if we're talking about measurements why there's so little interest on Head-Fi with the The Wire? It looks better than O2. The creator isn't a blowhard so no groupies for him?

I have compared an objective 02 to a Burson audio amp directly useing a pair of HE 500s.  I think I will do a review of them both. 
 
 
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 12:09 PM Post #205 of 389


Quote:
I have compared an objective 02 to a Burson audio amp directly useing a pair of HE 500s.  I think I will do a review of them both. 
 
 


 
I tried to do the comparison awhile back. I am well aware of the subjective vs objective debate since this is the O2 thread after all. I was curious if I could hear a audible difference between the two amps. Unfortunately the Burson I tested had a nasty hum so I didn't bother going any further.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 12:20 PM Post #206 of 389


Quote:
I have compared an objective 02 to a Burson audio amp directly useing a pair of HE 500s.  I think I will do a review of them both. 
 
 

 
 
Thank you Super MANSKITO. I am looking forward to your review.
 
Do not be afraid to provide subjective impressions and there is no need to stress yourself to be "objective" if you do not like to. There are audience for both subjective and objective reviews. It is just that some people tend be more vocal than others.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 12:24 PM Post #207 of 389


Quote:
 
MrSlim covered the main points regarding popularity of The Wire, which is of course an excellent higher-end (and very minimal, and tiny!) design that beats the O2 in performance.  It's really hard to get PCBs now, and the O2 is cheaper.  A kind of third issue is that builders are on their own regarding a volume control, gain, chassis, and so on, so it's not as convenient as a headphone amp without some more effort on the builder's part.  The Wire itself is more like just a really good output stage.
 
The other deal is that it's not clear that The Wire's higher performance actually translates into something audibly better.  Some people hear differences (when they are looking at the two different amps and know which it is they're listening to), but as has been discussed ad nauseum, this isn't particularly an indication that such a small difference is audible.  Even if you don't believe in that, most of the V "cult" or whatever you want to call it, does think that that's true, hence the following.
 
I do agree there's a lot of ridiculous language flying around, and the accusations of "you must like amp X more because it clearly has more distortion" would probably start grating on anybody, especially since it's kind of a patronizing viewpoint to take (sometimes that may be a true statement though, but that's besides the point).  There are also a lot of inflated estimates of the Beta22 cost!


I'm assuming the "inflated estimates" was directed at me, and I'd like to explain that the Beta22, built by a professional builder as advertised and linked on AMB's website, starts at 1600$. Here.
I agree that the big hype around the O2 is the fact that the performance-per-dollar is so much any newcomer can confidently build it. From there on it's the M50 effect: this is their first amp, it sounds great compared to anything they tried before, so of course it gets raved as the greatest thing since the wheel Wire. Of course this has just the same weight as Headfonia's review.
 
I think a good way to deal with this is our priorities in audio. This is something I've been thinking about. When you (and this is a general you) first came here, you weren't looking for a DT880 or a K701, you were most likely looking for something to plug into your iPod or laptop and enjoy something better than white earbuds. Then you started looking for something better, this time knowing what you were looking for a bit better. And you reached a point where an amplifier is worth considering. So the fact is, when you reached the part of buying an amp, you most likely wanted one to suit the headphones you already had. The objective chain goes in reverse: get everything as neutral and undistorted as possible up until the last link, and it's that last piece that you should get as colored as you want.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 12:58 PM Post #209 of 389
Quote:
I'm assuming the "inflated estimates" was directed at me, and I'd like to explain that the Beta22, built by a professional builder as advertised and linked on AMB's website, starts at 1600$. Here.

 
My apologies then, since that seems to be much more of an official figure than I originally thought, if that builder is linked on the AMB site.  There are plenty of different estimates I've seen quoted, though some are probably the BOM cost for a particular configuration.  The statement was not really pointed at you in specific though, but it sure seemed that way, so that's my bad.  A point I was going to make and didn't, was that sometimes people aren't comparing apples-to-apples regarding BOM costs vs. BOM costs, or assembled costs vs. assembled costs.
 
 
 
The objective chain goes in reverse: get everything as neutral and undistorted as possible up until the last link, and it's that last piece that you should get as colored as you want.

 
I don't really agree with this interpretation, though some people have that goal.  (I would include others in the objective camp as well.)  But that's just a matter of whom you categorize as pursuing the objective chain, so I don't think that's an interesting distinction anyway.
 
Apr 10, 2012 at 1:48 PM Post #210 of 389


Quote:
Originally Posted by nsk1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

<snip>
 
I didn't find one review saying that someone prefered O2 to other "high-end" amp.
 
<snip>



But there are a lot of posts about the O2 being very hard to tell apart from some high end amps....
 
I'm one of those posters.  I don't think I could reliably tell the difference between the O2 and my GS-1, as long as I used low gain and kept the O2 volume around 12:00.
 
And, I think the GS-1 has more resolution and sounds better than my M^3 or my Woo3, which btw, share a similar sound signature (Using a Cetron tube in the Woo and 637/627s in the M^3.)
 


 
 

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