[cel4145]

At most universities I suspect the idea of devoting resources to studying high-end or "hobby" audio would be laughed at.

Just to point out, it wouldn't even be academic research to do product testing, which is what people would like to see here in terms of DBT. Academic research could focus on analyzing DBT methodology, but that's a bit different.

 

[RRod]

A given review that has made pains to do things like volume matching and (if possible) blind testing is worth more than the same review without these things. Saying that the only purpose for such things is in rigorous academic tests is missing the point. Or perhaps people disagree with the first sentence.

 

[pctazhp]

I'd like to posit the following simple minded hypothetical. Let's assume I have two new headphone amps on my desktop and I am trying to decide which one to keep. I have chosen these two from numerous subjective posts I have read on HeadFi. One amp costs 3 times as much as the other. Certainly I'm going to be subject to external biases. Whether the cost difference favors one amp over the other may depend on whether I'm on a tight budget and am hoping the cheaper one is as good or almost as good as the more expensive one, or whether budget is not a consideration for me and I am inclined to believe the more expensive one is better.
 
There are two ways I can chose. One is through sighted listening comparisons over hours or even days. The other is to enlist the help of a friend or family member who with my back turned will switch back and forth. This isn't a double-blind test but I assume most of us would conclude the blind method is more reliable than the sighted approach.
 
But here is where this gets interesting, at least for me. Let's assume that the blind test showed statistically I could not distinguish between the two amps. Again I assume most of us would agree that the rational choice would be the cheaper amp (all other considerations being equal).
 
But what if after my assistant leaves and I start listening sighted to both amps and I just can't get it out of my mind that the more expensive one is just much more enjoyable to me. If I chose the more expensive one would I be considered just stupid and gullible, or would my choice be understandable?
 
Edit:  Assume volume matching was part of the blind test.
 
More edit (sorry): When I say the more expensive one is "more enjoyable" I mean it "sounds" better to me.

 

[Argyris]

  Moreover, the countless number of headphone and audio gear products is so vast, the thought of developing sufficient tests to approach some general consensus of the whether there really is a difference between or among products above a certain price point would certainly be daunting.

 
This is a very important point. Not only is the task herculean, but the fact that an exhaustive survey of every piece of equipment ever made is impractical (if not technically impossible) means there will always be somebody who claims that the science somehow doesn't apply to their pet piece of gear, since there aren't any tests for it specifically.
 
I feel that an effective empirical basis needs to dig a bit deeper, down to the fundamental principles. There's a big difference between "haven't found evidence for" and "cannot happen for any reason." If it can be shown that what's happening at an electrical and mechanical level inside, say, a cable or a DAC; is so similar across any possible permutation of the product class that any differences, while perhaps measurable, cannot be heard by humans, this sidesteps the "what if product x is different somehow" argument. Necessarily, we'll also need more research into how humans perceive sound, in both the auditory and psychological senses, so we can establish thresholds for what humans can and cannot hear, as well as build a better understanding of how humans categorize and process the sound they hear, and what factors can influence these processes.
 
Blind testing still has a place in an objective approach, I think. It's not going to definitively settle the argument on its own, but as a tool for the genuinely curious and open minded, I think it can still be useful. Many of the subjectivist claims are of massive, easily audible differences between pieces of gear. While it's true that proper testing requires more preparation and equipment than the average listener has access to, something cobbled together with some splitting cables and a volume meter should nonetheless serve as a rough indication of where the ball is going to lie. It's very difficult for me to believe that any confounding factors would invariably skew toward masking what is otherwise an obvious difference; in other words, tests designed to isolate a difference can't all have the same flaw that hides this difference only during the test. If the point is just for the individual taking the test to see if they can spot an obvious difference, I think this is sufficient.
 
But if we want to determine if anyone can hear a difference, that in the very least is going to require properly administered tests. Maybe it's possible, with enough ear training, with exceptionally sensitive hearing, and with sufficiently different gear; to detect a difference in certain circumstances. But if we have to go this far just to find any difference at all, that speaks volumes about the magnitude of the differences we're talking about here.

 

[Argyris]

 
But what if after my assistant leaves and I start listening sighted to both amps and I just can't get it out of my mind that the more expensive one is just much more enjoyable to me. If I chose the more expensive one would I be considered just stupid and gullible, or would my choice be understandable?

 
Taking your hypothetical example, I think it depends on whether or not you're honest with yourself about why you picked it. Actually, in neither case would I say you're stupid or gullible. But it would be worse if you managed to convince yourself that there was an obvious difference and then posted a bunch of stuff on Head-Fi about it being a definite improvement, than if you kept it in mind that you aren't sure what it was you liked about the more expensive one, and you were open to the possibility that it might just be sight bias. You could still report your findings, it would just be better if you were honest and pointed out that you couldn't account for your preference, but that you chose the one you felt better about for whatever reason.
 
I think what annoys a lot of objectivists is when people post subjective impressions as though they were hard, easily observable fact that only an idiot with a tin ear, or somebody willfully denying the "truth", couldn't detect. If people more often reported their findings in terms of "In my experience..." and acknowledged that their perception isn't infallible and might be subject to bias, I think there would be a lot less friction between the two camps. Instead, it's night and day, almost invariably in favor of the more hyped and more expensive product, and if anybody questions it, they're treated like they're part of some quaint cult that's trying to prove something everybody can clearly see isn't true, like the notion that the sky should actually be green or something.

 

[icebear]

...  
But here is where this gets interesting, at least for me. Let's assume that the blind test showed statistically I could not distinguish between the two amps. Again I assume most of us would agree that the rational choice would be the cheaper amp (all other considerations being equal).
 
But what if after my assistant leaves and I start listening sighted to both amps and I just can't get it out of my mind that the more expensive one is just much more enjoyable to me. If I chose the more expensive one would I be considered just stupid and gullible, or would my choice be understandable? ...

 
I never double blind tested any audio equipment (other stuff, so I am familiar with the method) and I have arrived at a set-up I am very happy with and I don't plan to change anything. In about 30 years I have gone through 3 amps, 3 pairs of loudspeakers, 4 CD players and 1 DAC. And 3 headphones, 1 headphone amp. So I don't change my equipment on a daily bases.
What is ultimately relevant is that the piece of equipment gives you more pleasure to listen for hours to your favorite music and not if that it has gotten more ears or stars or is on some wall of shame

.
If you can affort the higher priced amp, then go for it. If you do a DBT and find out there is no significant difference you can detect and then make a rational decision to go for the cheaper one ... will you be happy with it? Sometimes irrational decisions can be more fun.

 

[wormcycle]

Assuming obviously that a large number of people would buy and sell based solely on the InnerFidelity reviews. The history of HD800 does not confirm that, price started going down when HD800S were introduced. I certainly have no intention of selling mine. 

 

[Ancipital]

   
But what if after my assistant leaves and I start listening sighted to both amps and I just can't get it out of my mind that the more expensive one is just much more enjoyable to me. If I chose the more expensive one would I be considered just stupid and gullible, or would my choice be understandable?
 

 
At that point, your choice is possibly more down to what's know as behavioral economics. There are various factors that could affect your choice, and the strength of those factors depend on your specific socio-economic context.
 
You might choose the more expensive one if ostentatious displays of wealth were common in your peer group or society, for example. You might choose a recognisable high-status brand either because you believed it to be a safer purchase, or that it would confer status upon you.
 
Conversely, you might rebel against that brand for being too "mainstream", their perceived business practises or all sorts of things. Heck, if one is above/below a certain psychological "break point" price threshold, that could be a factor, too.
 
One of them might look cooler, or stack well with your other gear!
 
There are many factors, both rational that will shape both the list of candidates to buy, and the eventual choice you make. Some are common across many people, some may be more peculiar to you, or a smaller peer group. It's really hard to be definitive.

 

[pctazhp]

   
At that point, your choice is possibly more down to what's know as behavioral economics. There are various factors that could affect your choice, and the strength of those factors depend on your specific socio-economic context.
 
You might choose the more expensive one if ostentatious displays of wealth were common in your peer group or society, for example. You might choose a recognisable high-status brand either because you believed it to be a safer purchase, or that it would confer status upon you.
 
Conversely, you might rebel against that brand for being too "mainstream", their perceived business practises or all sorts of things. Heck, if one is above/below a certain psychological "break point" price threshold, that could be a factor, too.
 
One of them might look cooler, or stack well with your other gear!
 
There are many factors, both rational that will shape both the list of candidates to buy, and the eventual choice you make. Some are common across many people, some may be more peculiar to you, or a smaller peer group. It's really hard to be definitive.

My question merely said that in sighted listening the more expensive amp sounded much better to me. That could be for any number of reasons of which I would not be conscious. The question was really intended to explore people's values. Should I chose the cheaper amp in the interest of science or the more expensive one in the interest of personal pleasure?
 
I had to laugh at your comment about ostentatious display of wealth. In my circles my headphone is the source of humor - not prestige. My wife refers to my tubes as "bulbs" and thinks the HD800S is ugly and looks ridiculous ))

 

[RRod]

  My question merely said that in sighted listening the more expensive amp sounded much better to me. That could be for any number of reasons of which I would not be conscious. The question was really intended to explore people's values. Should I chose the cheaper amp in the interest of science or the more expensive one in the interest of personal pleasure?

 
If you are rich what does it matter? If the point is helping people get quality audio within their means, then it might be helpful to point out in threads/reviews that, when you couldn't see the bling, the amps sounded the same.

 

[Ancipital]

  My question merely said that in sighted listening the more expensive amp sounded much better to me. That could be for any number of reasons of which I would not be conscious. The question was really intended to explore people's values. Should I chose the cheaper amp in the interest of science or the more expensive one in the interest of personal pleasure?
 
I had to laugh at your comment about ostentatious display of wealth. In my circles my headphone is the source of humor - not prestige. My wife refers to my tubes as "bulbs" and thinks the HD800S is ugly and looks ridiculous ))

 
Yeah, but I am guessing you don't cover yourself in gold jewelry, or drive an ostentatiously aggressive car, either.
 
Moreover, there's peer groups and peer groups- there's a lot of people around here who will "casually" mention their Q1PR and/or Liquid Carbon at every possible opportunity, thinking it will get them cachet with the local audience- which it might, I suppose.. but less so with their slightly bemused families.
 
However, that was not the point, it was just one aspect that you seized upon for humorous effect (nowt wrong with that, either). The point is more than once you know which amp is which, your decision is shaped by psychological, social, cognitive, and emotional factors beyond that you believe you can "hear". We all do that, which is why people in this neck of the woods like blind tests so much- it's not because people are necessarily dishonest, just the brain is not a measuring device.

 

[castleofargh]

I don't see the point of trying to judge other people's reasons to buy something or how they decide it's worth it. in France we have this old stuff coming straight from when it was FOTM to put royalties heads in a basket, and was created as a law. in English it translates into something like this: "liberty consists in being able to do anything that does not bring harm to others". when a guy is in his house with the expensive headphone with bad measurements he bought only because he liked the shape and color, how is he doing anything wrong to us all? he should be free to enjoy his headphone for whatever reason he wants.
now what we can and should always question, are the reasons advanced by someone to have others buy a given gear. because making others waste money for the wrong reasons(marketing or pure lie/ignorance/placebo), that's not always without consequences for fellow forum readers.
 
 the topic at one point(when it was still burning in) was trying to find a link between price and audible qualities. but the thing is, the price of a product is not based on such qualities. if a guy spends 2 weeks making each pair of headphone by hand and the result is crap, he will still sell at a price that pays him for 2 weeks of work+pieces+ whatever to keep the activity afloat. it certainly is interesting to find a cheap product that will have the subjective qualities of the expensive product, but that will never make the expensive product an outlaw.

 

[NLNH]

  I don't see the point of trying to judge other people's reasons to buy something or how they decide it's worth it. in France we have this old stuff coming straight from when it was FOTM to put royalties heads in a basket, and was created as a law. in English it translates into something like this: "liberty consists in being able to do anything that does not bring harm to others". when a guy is in his house with the expensive headphone with bad measurements he bought only because he liked the shape and color, how is he doing anything wrong to us all? he should be free to enjoy his headphone for whatever reason he wants.
now what we can and should always question, are the reasons advanced by someone to have others buy a given gear. because making others waste money for the wrong reasons(marketing or pure lie/ignorance/placebo), that's not always without consequences for fellow forum readers.
 
 the topic at one point(when it was still burning in) was trying to find a link between price and audible qualities. but the thing is, the price of a product is not based on such qualities. if a guy spends 2 weeks making each pair of headphone by hand and the result is crap, he will still sell at a price that pays him for 2 weeks of work+pieces+ whatever to keep the activity afloat. it certainly is interesting to find a cheap product that will have the subjective qualities of the expensive product, but that will never make the expensive product an outlaw.

 
how bout when people are hyping up the 2-weeks-made-crap because it is more expensive? and keep saying it is way better than the much more reliable cheapos while every pair of 2-weeks-made-crap differs?
 
In the end, China make cheapos, somewhere rebrands, people believe in the effort, and margin is generated from the difference of labour (2weeks of work cost ? in China and ???? in somewhere else) . Like how starbucks works.

 

[castleofargh]

obviously that is wrong. and those helping the hype will go to audio hell where little fluffy rabbits eat your cables anytime you look away.

 

[pctazhp]

  obviously that is wrong. and those helping the hype will go to audio hell where little fluffy rabbits eat your cables anytime you look away.

Already been there. My dear departed Bugsy thought all my cables were carrots