[David222]

I agree with you entirely @alekc this should all be much simpler and run more smoothly. Will see what Rockna says soon about my scenario.

I do like the fact that Rockna is continually iterating on their software / working to improve - this is a benefit in ownership - especially over long(er) periods of time.

@David222 mine did the same, power cycle did the trick, but better wait for Rockna support answer.

Rockna is great sound wise, but the update procedures are horribly wrong. This is twice the fault of Rockna Audio: once this is how they designed it in the first place and second time when they decided to promise features and make their product available without complete firmware. I must say I admire Chord here: you buy a complete product that is finished and no upgrades are needed (I'm not talking about their streamers but dacs and amps only).

Following up here - I just realized my update did indeed work. I am now on 1.38 firmware.

It seems for some reason my WL instead of going into standby - also went back into UPD (after the update completed) and required a hard power cycle to reboot (as you noted)

Separately, I am finding the new firmware update to be slightly more forward sounding - am I making this up?? perhaps it was just the album I was listening too -- perhaps I need to spend more time still as it’s only been 12 hours with the update —

does anyone else perceive any sound / frequency response change ??

 

[EagleWings]

I am glad it wasn’t bricked. Yea I’ve observed sonic changes between FWs too. But it’s not something discussed loudly in the public as 95% folks are skeptical on such things and only leads to arguments.

 

[alekc]

Following up here - I just realized my update did indeed work. I am now on 1.38 firmware.

It seems for some reason my WL instead of going into standby - also went back into UPD (after the update completed) and required a hard power cycle to reboot (as you noted)

Separately, I am finding the new firmware update to be slightly more forward sounding - am I making this up?? perhaps it was just the album I was listening too -- perhaps I need to spend more time still as it’s only been 12 hours with the update —

does anyone else perceive any sound / frequency response change ??

@David222 am I so glad you resolved all update issues and can further enjoy the music from WaveLight. Every time I turn it on and music starts playing I am so happy I can listen to it so getting it bricked despite the servicing hassle would also be a huge problem in terms of enjoyment.

As for the sound change after update: I don't think there is but let's not start this discussion. After all it doesn't matter what others are hearing it only counts what you are hearing.

 

[sajunky]

I am glad it wasn’t bricked. Yea I’ve observed sonic changes between FWs too. But it’s not something discussed loudly in the public as 95% folks are skeptical on such things and only leads to arguments.

Firmware versions for FPGA based hardware can give a significant change in SQ, as all internal logic is reprogrammed. Clock synchronisation, DSP processing, etc. You can discuss these changes freely, it is not snake oil, can be a real things.

 

[TBMY]

For me the FW update to 210 resulted in better defined and deeper bass, imaging and transperency improved as well on my horn system.
Glad it worked out for you, and I agree that the FW update process is not optimal by playing a wav file. The WL bluetooth app should have been used for this...

 

[alekc]

For me the FW update to 210 resulted in better defined and deeper bass, imaging and transperency improved as well on my horn system.
Glad it worked out for you, and I agree that the FW update process is not optimal by playing a wav file. The WL bluetooth app should have been used for this...

@TBMY the BT upgrade via Rockna App is not working correctly for older WL models as per info I've got from Rockna support, to make it work 100% you need to upgrade dac which in turn means sending it back to the dealer to install new hardware board. So overall updating WL is kind of tricky, badly designed process unfortunately, yet the sound somehow makes me forgive all of it for now.

Firmware versions for FPGA based hardware can give a significant change in SQ, as all internal logic is reprogrammed. Clock synchronisation, DSP processing, etc. You can discuss these changes freely, it is not snake oil, can be a real things.

@sajunky AFAIK according to the manufacturer the update does not change SQ. Generally speaking you are right but I wonder if you have any additional info regarding WaveLight. This is "dangerous" topic considering at least 2 hardware revision of Rockna and 2 lines of firmware. That is why I refuse to follow this path of thinking. I'm just enjoying sound of WL. Have heard different revs of WL and IMHO they sound the same or very similar.

 

[tawmizzzz]

Found the answer-please ignore

 

[fansq]

An update on the WL USB upgrade to a galvanically isolated board using a TI chip.

I started with an older WL running the old firmware in a Mac>WL>Holo Bliss>Susvara chain. I was getting some glare and the bass could use improvement - a bit weak and muddled, a pretty quick fall off the shelf and a lack of presence.

The first change was getting a new dac board running 2.10 after the WL bricked during the firmware upgrade. Then, I installed the new USB board. This was followed by installing the Lostless Switcher app on the Mac so the WL sample rate and bit depth match the source. (The Mac made you do it manually for each switch on the midi screen.) Finally, I got a stand so the amp and WL weren’t stacked. This allowed for longer warmups because the class A Bliss gets pretty damn warm and requires ventilation.

The Board/firmware switch was supposed to correct some issues with the clock. I noticed some improvement in the bass as it became more coherent. The new USB board is supposed to lower the noise floor which is (so I understand) particularly an issue if sourcing from a computer rather than a streamer or having a DDC. I installed the Lostless Switcher at about the same time. The board and switcher really improved the bass with greater depth, presence, and coherence, while cleaner and less muddled. I haven’t messed with the WL filters in the new setup but my guess is their effects will increase. I also noticed a diminution of the glare in the high mid / low trebl FR. The sessions were significantly less fatiguing which was the first priority especially with a pretty resolving setup.
Finally, it seems that warming up the rig matters. I know that the burnin of the bliss made a huge difference. It was practically unlistenable out of the box.
So I think each change contributes to the sonic improvement. I’ll do an a/b with the switcher at some point
It would be really great for this hobby if someone funded a controlled test at a reputable lab to a/b audiophile products and put an end, or at least advance, these debates about the effects or differences among equipment. It seems cables would be a pretty easy first step.

 

[sajunky]

It would be really great for this hobby if someone funded a controlled test at a reputable lab to a/b audiophile products and put an end, or at least advance, these debates about the effects or differences among equipment. It seems cables would be a pretty easy first step.

Some tried with little success as there are many factors beyond expectation, then it turns to another commercial venue. The best you can do is on your own, but remember that clean power and no electromagnetic interference around your gear is a key factor.

I was visiting number of high-end installation on the occasion owners need technical assistance and I can say that in many cases sound quality exceed anything you can hear in showrooms where you can do A/B comparisons. Once some level of purity is achieved, our ears switch to a different processing that allows recognising even small changes in your configuration or detect mastering errors in recordings. And if you think when you fix these imperfection, you will be satisfied? Not. It will bring you to next level revealing more defects, it will never end.

 

[fansq]

Some tried with little success as there are many factors beyond expectation, then it turns to another commercial venue. The best you can do is on your own, but remember that clean power and no electromagnetic interference around your gear is a key factor.

I was visiting number of high-end installation on the occasion owners need technical assistance and I can say that in many cases sound quality exceed anything you can hear in showrooms where you can do A/B comparisons. Once some level of purity is achieved, our ears switch to a different processing that allows recognising even small changes in your configuration or detect mastering errors in recordings. And if you think when you fix these imperfection, you will be satisfied? Not. It will bring you to next level revealing more defects, it will never end.

I don’t want to fall of the thread topic police, so I’ll make my response short. But when manufactures or enthusiasts claim there is a discernible sonic effect, it seems that a well designed test on a large enough sample will provide confidence whether that effect exists.


For example, there is a big disagreement about whether cables - interconnects, HF cables, etc, - have any effects at all. A/B-ing different cables in the same chain with a reasonable sample would tell you whether the listeners can discern differences. Look at the AQ product offerings and price points. They believe rhey are selling audibly different products. A nice, well designed, double blind test should be able to say whether there a statistically significant difference. So far all I’ve seen are individuals making comparisons and giving their impressions or arguments (often screeds) about the impossibility of such effects.

 

[sajunky]

For example, there is a big disagreement about whether cables - interconnects, HF cables, etc, - have any effects at all. A/B-ing different cables in the same chain with a reasonable sample would tell you whether the listeners can discern differences. Look at the AQ product offerings and price points. They believe rhey are selling audibly different products. A nice, well designed, double blind test should be able to say whether there a statistically significant difference. So far all I’ve seen are individuals making comparisons and giving their impressions or arguments (often screeds) about the impossibility of such effects.

Actually on this issue I gave a hint in my previous post. Our ability to detect differences depends on a transparency of the system. Cable tweaks are on a third level. You need to do something before you can hear difference between cables.
If your system is at the first level, all DACs sound the same. Did you hear such claims?

There is also a need to tune certain characteristics of a sound like brightness. It is getting more complicated, as not all combinations give the best match. A taste is not the same either. You can't measure my taste (refer to my sig).

 

[Paoloz]

If anyone is interested, I'm selling my wavelight. Pm me

 

[fansq]

Actually on this issue I gave a hint in my previous post. Our ability to detect differences depends on a transparency of the system. Cable tweaks are on a third level. You need to do something before you can hear difference between cables.
If your system is at the first level, all DACs sound the same. Did you hear such claims?

There is also a need to tune certain characteristics of a sound like brightness. It is getting more complicated, as not all combinations give the best match. A taste is not the same either. You can't measure my taste (refer to my sig).

It pretty much is simple. Get a high end system and double blind the test. There’s a bunch of folks that say SS amps have been solved, too. If they can’t be detected that’s the end of it for me. They sure as hell aren’t advertised that way. And if they were no one would by them. Double blind testing is pretty much done in a ton of scientific environments. The idea that audio equipment is some sort of exception doesn’t really make a lot of sense.

 

[Clemmaster]

Quick A/B test doesn’t reveal all (if any, depending on what you’re testing) differences. It sometimes takes a while to appreciate the difference.

 

[harsheel]

the hardest part about testing non-measurable differences is that this is a very subjective hobby. everyone’s ears and brains are different. my interpretation of shrill and bright might the same as your crisp and clear.