Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Dec 11, 2019 at 1:50 PM Post #54,571 of 150,777
Jason, your excellent post raised my curiosity about SUMO amps. I got the user manual for theGOLD and thePOWER ones… OMG! Seems more like a nuclear power reactor operator's manual! Worth the reading:

https://www.davidsaudio.com/Gold_Power_Manual.pdf

Now I understand why they were called SUMO.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 2:53 PM Post #54,573 of 150,777
I also answered every question, but I'm a mechanical engineer so all my answers involved steel and pipe and pumps. So I, too, deleted my answers before posting them.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 2:59 PM Post #54,574 of 150,777
I also answered every question, but I'm a mechanical engineer so all my answers involved steel and pipe and pumps. So I, too, deleted my answers before posting them.

you should volunteer your services to test and evaluate any mechanical issues surrounding the CD transport. are you a vinyl junkie (SOL beta tester???)
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 3:00 PM Post #54,575 of 150,777
Some quick googling finds this specification for the Neumann TLM102, an expensive/high end studio large diaphragm condenser (LDC) microphone [I wish I had one, but they don't let me near the expensive toys]:

Maximum SPL for THD 0.5% (footnote 3) 144 dB

(footnote 3: measured as equivalent el. input signal)

(source: https://en-de.neumann.com/tlm-102#technical-data)

Now, that's backwards as it specifies max SPL for a wost-case ceiiing THD, and that's a very high SPL, although that seems to be the specialty of this mic.

But even in this cherry picked, best case scenario, it's close to Ableza's number, and worse than most everything else in your thought-experiment audio reproduction chain

That's an exceptional number, given the very high SPL! I wouldn't be embarrassed with that mic!

Jason, how has Mike been doing? I haven't seen any updates from him in awhile. I'm concerned for his well being. I hope his health is improving.

Improving, but he's not really all that great at typing still. Don't worry, he's tough, and he's been working on a bunch of new stuff. Some of which I expect you'll see this year.

Jason, your excellent post raised my curiosity about SUMO amps. I got the user manual for theGOLD and thePOWER ones… OMG! Seems more like a nuclear power reactor operator's manual! Worth the reading:

https://www.davidsaudio.com/Gold_Power_Manual.pdf

Now I understand why they were called SUMO.

I was post- that era (I was at Sumo from 1989 to 1993). But yeah, the early stuff was insane. The later stuff was still pretty crazy, the Andromeda 2/3 were one of the only amps that did a good job with difficult loads like Apogees and the infamous Infinity Kappa 9 from that era.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Dec 11, 2019 at 3:03 PM Post #54,576 of 150,777
DPA has specs on the distortion of their mics. I'm sure other serious mic companies do too. The distortion spec is similar to how people spec power amps: this amount of sound pressure level will cause this much distortion. For example, the 1% THD spec (or -40 dB) for their 4006 omni capsule is 136 dB SPL RMS, or 139 dB SPL peak. Its max input SPL is 146 dB SPL which causes 10% THD (-20 dB). They wrote a whitepaper on it too: the-basics-about-distortion-in-mics

A cool factoid from that link: air itself goes non-linear (ie. distorts) at 194 dB SPL because you can't go below a vacuum for the negative part of the soundwave.

For feedback amount and distortion, consider that feedback feeds the whole signal back into the input, so whatever distortion is present is compounded again, which has two implications:

1. feedback can cause more distortion products, albeit at a much lower level
2. the better the open-loop performance of the amp, ie. the less it needs feedback to get good numbers, the better it will probably sound due to 1.

The mathematical basis for 1 is easy to see if you do a power series expansion of an amp's transfer function. A perfectly linear amp looks like f(x) = a*x, where the input x is multiplied by some constant a to make the output f. A non-linear amp (in both the mathematical and the engineering sense) is one where there are higher order components: f(x) = a*x + b*x^2. In this case, this amp will generate 2nd order distortion because it has a the x^2 term. The exponent (2 in this example) is equal to the order of distortion it will make.

Now consider 2 of these devices hooked up in a row. The output will be f(f(x)) = a*f(x) + b*(f(x)^2). If you work out the math in this, you will have x^3 and x^4 terms, which means the combo of the two devices is making 3rd and 4th order distortion in addition to 2nd order distortion. So the distortion compounds. Each stage in an amp will compound their distortion products too, and that might explain why some designers eschew very complicated, multistage amps.

In the case of negative feedback, it's kind of like this except the output is fed back at a much lower level and somehow subtracted from the input to make the output come as close as possible to the input, but it's still generating higher order harmonics which are not subtracted. And higher order harmonics are bad because they occur further away from the fundamental tone (the input signal) and are therefore easier to hear – it's more likely to be outside of the critical band of the ear at the fundamental tone's frequency. So that's the theoretical basis of more negative feedback potentially causing more audible issues in an amp, and why the cleaner the open loop performance of the amp, the better feedback might work for it from a subjective POV.

You can also see why global feedback might be subjectively worse than local, or single-stage feedback, because the global feedback will have the compounded distortion products of many stages of an amp in it whereas a single-stage feedback will only have its own stage's distortion products.

Note that this is not a novel idea. I think I read about this in some AES paper from the 50s or 60s.
 
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Dec 11, 2019 at 3:22 PM Post #54,577 of 150,777
Improving, but he's not really all that great at typing still. Don't worry, he's tough, and he's been working on a bunch of new stuff. Some of which I expect you'll see this year.

@Jason Stoddard I presume you actually meant next year, given there are only 20 days left this year and most people will be expecting to be on holiday for a few of them!
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 3:28 PM Post #54,578 of 150,777
@Jason Stoddard I presume you actually meant next year, given there are only 20 days left this year and most people will be expecting to be on holiday for a few of them!

After following Schiit the last couple years, I'm sure he means this year!

On a personal note, today is my last work day for the year :)
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 3:54 PM Post #54,582 of 150,777
Congrats @Ableza & @tincanear ... I knew that stuff but didn't want to show off !! :)
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 3:55 PM Post #54,583 of 150,777
2019, Chapter 18:
13 Answers ....{{{snip}}}}...
9. How large of a difference will jack contact and cable routing make when performing measurements on low-distortion amplifiers?


When measuring Magni Heresy and Magni 3+, it was a common occurrence for me to curse and go back to the bench because one channel was bad—I mean, really bad. Like 20dB off. And I’d stare at the PC board, looking for the wrong part, or the bad solder joint, and, after finding nothing, I’d plug it in again…and everything would measure fine.

Then next time it would be bad again.

Intermittent board? No. After a while, I learned to turn the TRS plug in the socket if one channel looked wonky. 99 times out of 100, that fixed it.

So, yeah. Bad contact or bad cables can bork your measurements by 10-20dB. That’s despite using custom cables (Mogami, nothing fancy) and high-quality connectors (Neutrik.) (And no, we don’t hard-wire for measurements, that’s cheating.)

Want more bad measurements? Tangle the wall-wart cable in the signal cables. Boom. Tons of hum. (Still inaudible, but the measurements were off.)
......{{{chop}}}.....
Bottom line, there’s a lot of complexity in audio, and it doesn’t always lend itself to easy explanations. I hope you enjoyed looking into some of this complexity in more detail!
Question #9 surprised me. It shouldn't but... So far, I've avoided plunking down serious cash for fancy-dancy cables and connectors. My high-school electricity unit dictates my cable choices: larger diameter cables, shorter distances... leads to lower resistance... and that's gooder! :ksc75smile: BTW - one of my applied science students (in my province, supposedly [applied] < [academic] curriculum.... pshhh, nope) was muttering about cable management while he built his student-circuits. So there's indeed another generation of electricians in the wings! Be patient, Schiit Audio... I'm growing a new crop as fast as I can! Eh.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 4:02 PM Post #54,584 of 150,777
That's an exceptional number, given the very high SPL! I wouldn't be embarrassed with that mic!

That's actually pretty standard - mics since the late 50's have easily hit 140dB or close to it spl handling at 0.5% THD and with SNRs of 90+dB. TLM102 is a good sounding piece of kit, but fairly average in price and specs compared to some other stuff out there. Glad to hear Mike is doing better!
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 4:03 PM Post #54,585 of 150,777
Question #9 surprised me. It shouldn't but... So far, I've avoided plunking down serious cash for fancy-dancy cables and connectors. My high-school electricity unit dictates my cable choices: larger diameter cables, shorter distances... leads to lower resistance... and that's gooder! :ksc75smile: BTW - one of my applied science students (in my province, supposedly [applied] < [academic] curriculum.... pshhh, nope) was muttering about cable management while he built his student-circuits. So there's indeed another generation of electricians in the wings! Be patient, Schiit Audio... I'm growing a new crop as fast as I can! Eh.

You are a wise man ScubaMan. :smile_phones:
 

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