[Currawong]

Mid-stream engineering change? Only way to know is buy a new unit or... you know... communication from the company. There have been several silent updates to various products (Modi 2 multibit firmware, Gungir, Jotunheim, etc.) if you do your research.

This has nothing to do with product updates. The suggestion was that they sold certain people "good" units while selling regular units to everyone else, which is irrational, given it would simply be easier to only sell "good" units to everyone to begin with. To me the suggestion is a lousy conspiracy theory intended to cover for measuring incompetence.

 

[tgh5000]

Since Yggy has a lot of components inside, and resistors, capacitors and other components are not guaranteed to be extremely precise, I don’t think two Yggys will sound exactly the same. If they wanted to guarantee the same performance in all units, QC would have to be very tight, and a lot of boards would have to be thrown away. In that case, the price would become much higher than $2400. Given that, it is entirely possible that some units will measure better than the rest. Question will then be if such units were picked and sent to certain affiliated forums.

My hypothesis of course, and not picking any sides.

 

[adydula]

That's a very good discussion.

I have built many electrical or electronic projects, and have used thousands of components, measuring and picking out components that are close inspec / tolerance etc.

Many times circuits have adjustments to get things into the correct "areas" as the circuit design calls for depending on what the circuit actually is.

In "good" designs having stable power is critical, and these usually are highly regulated, separate supply circuits. Other areas might be oscillator circuits etc.

Schitt using monolithic parts in some areas is a good thing IMO where critical accuracy is needed M. Moffet speaks to this.

There are several other products out there that use totally discrete parts to build R2R dacs and op amps etc...knowing how hard it is to get parts to be really very very close in tolerance has always made me wary of their claims of perfection.

That said with so many things being built with a myriad of parts measuring different units of the same design most likely will measure different, but close enough to the design spec and in the case of this dac most likely totally inaudible IMO.

Alex

Note: Also note that any and all electronic units fall prey to this "charge" as well. Even Brand "x". A well know tube amp designer has many times stated its the circuit "stupid"....lol.

 

[AmpStyleDeathStyle]

This has nothing to do with product updates. The suggestion was that they sold certain people "good" units while selling regular units to everyone else, which is irrational, given it would simply be easier to only sell "good" units to everyone to begin with. To me the suggestion is a lousy conspiracy theory intended to cover for measuring incompetence.

It could do if Jude and Bob measured brand new or recently upgraded units. Can they tell us how the tested units were sourced?

You seem to be reading too much into the quote, "special" doesn't have to mean a conspiracy with tweaked units, it could just mean new units that are known to have all current running changes incorporated.

 

[Currawong]

You could just ask @Jason Stoddard straight up.

 

[thebkt]

It could do if Jude and Bob measured brand new or recently upgraded units. Can they tell us how the tested units were sourced?

You seem to be reading too much into the quote, "special" doesn't have to mean a conspiracy with tweaked units, it could just mean new units that are known to have all current running changes incorporated.

As it turns out and I have shown, the difference between the two methods is extremely small. After all, even I filter down -50 dB. The big difference in published reports is due to different units being tested. Clearly what Jude/AtomicBob have is different than what customers have bought. They are either hand-picked or have corrected firmware/design.

Amir has hardly been thorough or consistent in his methodology. He even denigrated AtomicBob's dynamic range measurement because he (Amir) didn't understand the standardized test being conducted. At no point did he acknowledge his mistakes, nor did he edit his erroneous claims. He simply marched on as if he'd been in the right all along.

I mention this to show that the guy is by no means reliable as a source, let alone infallible. So based on many examples consistent with those mentioned above -- when he claims that Jude and Bob are using modified units, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt. He's digging his heels in as opposed to simply accepting that perhaps his methodology and understanding could be improved.

 

[atomicbob]

Every one of my multibit DACs from Schiit have been purchased online and in the same queue as everyone else. My yggdrasil was acquired mid 2015 in what I remember as being the first batch shipped. In fact mine was received after many members here were already posting impressions, if I remember correctly. There was nothing hand picked about it. To Schiit I was just another order. After posting measurements they took some notice. But nothing changed about my acquisition process. No DAC freebies, nothing hand selected or cherry picked.

This year I received A2 update PCBs and firmware directly from Schiit after they ascertained I had the correct equipment and technical experience to upgrade myself without damaging anything in the process. A static free work-station and ability to follow anti-static manufacturing methods is required. This implies the ability to read standards, methods and follow them meticulously. Please refer to the pictures found in the first post and note the anti-static wrist strap and monitor. I suppose these update PCBs could have been hand sorted, but I have no reason to believe that. My yggdrasil A2 measurements are from this 2015 vintage yggdrasil with 2018 A2 updates.

I have found all five of my Schiit multibit DACs (Bifrost MB x2) of sufficient merit to keep them in my acoustic lab library of audio components. They all are in regular listening session rotation. Listening to a headphone station setup incorporating Modi MB all this week as an example.

 

[Alcophone]

Every one of my multibit DACs from Schiit have been purchased online and in the same queue as everyone else. My yggdrasil was acquired mid 2015 in what I remember as being the first batch shipped. In fact mine was received after many members here were already posting impressions, if I remember correctly. There was nothing hand picked about it. To Schiit I was just another order. After posting measurements they took some notice. But nothing changed about my acquisition process. No DAC freebies, nothing hand selected or cherry picked.

This year I received A2 update PCBs and firmware directly from Schiit after they ascertained I had the correct equipment and technical experience to upgrade myself without damaging anything in the process. A static free work-station and ability to follow anti-static manufacturing methods is required. This implies the ability to read standards, methods and follow them meticulously. Please refer to the pictures found in the first post and note the anti-static wrist strap and monitor. I suppose these update PCBs could have been hand sorted, but I have no reason to believe that. My yggdrasil A2 measurements are from this 2015 vintage yggdrasil with 2018 A2 updates.

I have found all five of my Schiit multibit DACs (Bifrost MB x2) of sufficient merit to keep them in my acoustic lab library of audio components. They all are in regular listening session rotation. Listening to a headphone station setup incorporating Modi MB all this week as an example.

Aaah. When I looked at your before/after surgery pictures, I was wondering whether you just have a routine down and that's why it looked so similar, since normally you can't get the self-install upgrade in this case. So you have a binary of the firmware... interesting...

 

[AmpStyleDeathStyle]

Every one of my multibit DACs from Schiit have been purchased online and in the same queue as everyone else. My yggdrasil was acquired mid 2015 in what I remember as being the first batch shipped. In fact mine was received after many members here were already posting impressions, if I remember correctly. There was nothing hand picked about it. To Schiit I was just another order. After posting measurements they took some notice. But nothing changed about my acquisition process. No DAC freebies, nothing hand selected or cherry picked.

This year I received A2 update PCBs and firmware directly from Schiit after they ascertained I had the correct equipment and technical experience to upgrade myself without damaging anything in the process. A static free work-station and ability to follow anti-static manufacturing methods is required. This implies the ability to read standards, methods and follow them meticulously. Please refer to the pictures found in the first post and note the anti-static wrist strap and monitor. I suppose these update PCBs could have been hand sorted, but I have no reason to believe that. My yggdrasil A2 measurements are from this 2015 vintage yggdrasil with 2018 A2 updates.

I have found all five of my Schiit multibit DACs (Bifrost MB x2) of sufficient merit to keep them in my acoustic lab library of audio components. They all are in regular listening session rotation. Listening to a headphone station setup incorporating Modi MB all this week as an example.

Thanks Bob for the detailed answer. Since the Yggdrasil A2 upgrade is not generally available for self install, you are obviously a special case as far as Schiit is concerned. Did you pay full price for the upgrade, was it discounted due to the self install, or was it supplied gratis?

 

[atomicbob]

I received a $50 discount for performing the update myself.

 

[Torq]

So you have a binary of the firmware... interesting...

The firmware in question is just an 8-pin DIP PROM swap - which is a socketed IC on the DSP board (clearly visible in the pictures on Schiit's site).

So to the extent that you can read the contents of any PROM, everyone that has a unit has a "binary" of the firmware. What they don't have is a burnable source image. Though again, you could certainly create one from the raw PROM contents. But this isn't a case of Schiit sending out update files or anything like that (even if they did, you'd still have to pull the IC to do it, and have the requisite burner).

 

[Alcophone]

The firmware in question is just an 8-pin DIP PROM swap - which is a socketed IC on the DSP board (clearly visible in the pictures on Schiit's site).

So to the extent that you can read the contents of any PROM, everyone that has a unit has a "binary" of the firmware. What they don't have is a burnable source image. Though again, you could certainly create one from the raw PROM contents. But this isn't a case of Schiit sending out update files or anything like that (even if they did, you'd still have to pull the IC to do it, and have the requisite burner).

Oh, really? I assumed that's what the RJ45 jack is for, but maybe I'm wrong.

The Gungnir has a RJ45 jack, visible on the right side:

A picture from someone who modded their Yggdrasil suggests it has one, too, on the front panel board with the LEDs:



But maybe they serve different purposes.

 

[Torq]

Oh, really? I assumed that's what the RJ45 jack is for, but maybe I'm wrong.

The Gungnir has a RJ45 jack, visible on the right side:

A picture from someone who modded their Yggdrasil suggests it has one, too, on the front panel board with the LEDs:



But maybe they serve different purposes.

That’d be for the control board firmware (input switching, phase inversion toggle, indicator control, muting relays). No idea if there have been changes to that, though if there have they shouldn’t have anything to do with the sound of the unit. If there have been updates there, I’m sure Schitt apply them on a factory upgrade.

The self-installed Analog 2 just included the PROM for the DSP board, which is fundamentally the filter code, and at a minimum would include the “glitch fix” which had already been slipstreamed into production units long before Analog 2 was available.

 

[Torq]

It’s also worth noting that the self-installed upgrade isn’t a “kit”. Just two raw DAC/analog boards and the PROM. No instructions ... you either know what you’re doing or you don’t ... the first fun part of which is taking the unit apart.

Not that it’s hard, but if it were me I wouldn’t want anyone attempting it without the right tools, knowledge and ESD-safe work area.

 

[adydula]

Why is it so important to know if atomicbob got a discount for installing this by himself instead of sending it back to Schitt. If anyone has the credentials to do this its him.

Lets see you spend $2300+ bucks on a high end dac and your worried if someone got a break because he got a $50 off for this??

Most folks have not a clue on how to do this, and if something went wrong they would be all over Schitt….just human nature IMO.

Or is it your doubting once again the validity of atomicbobs measurements because of all this??

What is really neat is Schitt is selling these things like no tomorrow, backorders etc...partially due to this fiasco and the stellar measurements this dac has.

Alex