[Patlezinc]

For what it's worth, I have a Japan market 1AM2 but I never feel the need to go into high gain. Disclaimer - I don't own and don't plan on owning the Susvara.

It is not only a volume thing. You can have enough power to create decibels and kill your ears but you don’t have enough juice to exploite your headphones. Each time I paired my DAPs with an external amp, sound was better (soundstage wise) despite a volume totally ok with the DAPs.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

It is not only a volume thing. You can have enough power to create decibels and kill your ears but you don’t have enough juice to exploite your headphones. Each time I paired my DAPs with an external amp, sound was better (soundstage wise) despite a volume totally ok with the DAPs.

Yes, I own the TT2 and a tube amp. I am familiar with full size amps. That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that on low gain, at volume level 90 out of 120, some of my full size headphones are loud enough at whatever quality this DAP's (digital) amp can produce. Whether that's not the same quality of sound as on my TT2 at the same dB level... correct. But whether more volume headroom on this DAP would change things... I don't think so.

But what was said above I was not aware of, that even on low gain the EU model has less power. So if I understand correctly, an EU model might be at 120 volume when I am at 90 on mine. That is bad.

 

[User9876]

Yes, I own the TT2 and a tube amp. I am familiar with full size amps. That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that on low gain, at volume level 90 out of 120, some of my full size headphones are loud enough at whatever quality this DAP's (digital) amp can produce. Whether that's not the same quality of sound as on my TT2 at the same dB level... correct. But whether more volume headroom on this DAP would change things... I don't think so.

But what was said above I was not aware of, that even on low gain the EU model has less power. So if I understand correctly, an EU model might be at 120 volume when I am at 90 on mine. That is bad.

Apart from not being able to increase the volume any higher once the maximum volume is reached on the EU version it has the same physical H/W and is volume limited in the F/W only, so even if the volume limited version is maxed out it will sound the same as the non-EU version at the same power output.

In theory.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

Makes sense, I was just thinking that if someone is at 120 volume getting the right level of volume for them, there's always the feeling that the next track might need a little more volume and that's where the issue/frustration appears with a volume capped unit.

For me, being at 90 and knowing that, if needed, I can go higher, makes it sufficient. Plus I have high gain, should I ever need it...

Of course, the point made above that certain headphones will never sound as good on a DAP as on a proper desktop amp is obvious.

 

[User9876]

Makes sense, I was just thinking that if someone is at 120 volume getting the right level of volume for them, there's always the feeling that the next track might need a little more volume and that's where the issue/frustration appears with a volume capped unit.

For me, being at 90 and knowing that, if needed, I can go higher, makes it sufficient. Plus I have high gain, should I ever need it...

Of course, the point made above that certain headphones will never sound as good on a DAP as on a proper desktop amp is obvious.

This has been discussed to death here already. This volume limit is completely ridiculous because it takes no account of what is plugged in.

I'm using the Beyerdynamic Xelento with my EU unit currently and its already plenty loud enough at volume level 75 it has a quoted sensitivity of 110 dB SPL.

If I listened all day every day with this pairing at full volume I would probably be deaf by Christmas, so the volume limit is not even quiet enough (don't tell Sony though).

IMO I don't think any DAP should be used with power hungry full size headphones, DAP's are really designed for portable use and for that we have high sensitivity headphones and IEM's , controversial I know, but if I want to knock a wall down I use a sledgehammer and if I want to crack a nut I use a nutcracker.

 

[SRKRAM]

Even without turning on the high gain the uncapped model has more power

I wondered about the output power of the WM1AM2/WM1ZM2 with different loads, so I just calculated the following graphs for both the uncapped and capped versions. These are based on an output impedance of 1.2Ohms and 2.15VRMS max for the uncapped version and 0.2VRMS max for the capped version.
I've measured the VRMS values of both versions, and I found the output impedance in a technical review.

These are for the balanced output on both. Values will be quite similar for other Sony players. I may create a version for the 707 if anybody's interested as it has slightly higher output impedance. If anybody's interested I will also create versions for the single-ended outputs.

I went up to 80 Ohms on the x-axis, but the uncapped version should output 15mW into 300 ohms.

I measures the output voltage of my capped and uncapped version. The capped version could only deliver 0.2Vrms, while the uncapped was, IIRC, 1Vrms on low gain. I also posted some charts to show max power into different loads for capped and uncapped.

 

[User9876]

I measures the output voltage of my capped and uncapped version. The capped version could only deliver 0.2Vrms, while the uncapped was, IIRC, 1Vrms on low gain. I also posted some charts to show max power into different loads for capped and uncapped.

0.2v RMS into 16 ohms = 2.5mW.

That explains why the Xelento can go so loud. With a 2.5mW input its output will be 200dB+, well it wont actually be that loud in reality because it may well burn out at 2.5mW power input.

The reality is Xelento and other sensitive IEM's just don't need more than 1mW to shine, no matter what anyone tells you.

 

[ttt123]

Adequate volume is not the same as being properly driven.
But that is only an opinion. If people are happy with the performance from a capped model, then nothing more needs to be said.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

Adequate volume is not the same as being properly driven.
But that is only an opinion. If people are happy with the performance from a capped model, then nothing more needs to be said.

So what you're saying is correct and very much obvious to anyone who's spent some time in the hobby. To exemplify, you are saying that:

- for example Headphone X, of average impendence and sensitivity, will be "more properly" driven by the Violectric V281 than by a good DAP

This is clear, to everyone.

But are you also saying (based on your second line) that:

a) - Headphone X is playing at volume 70 on the 1AM2 uncapped and this results in a volume of 80 dB
b) - Headphone X is playing at volume 70 (or 80 or 90) on the 1AM2 capped and this results in a volume of 80 dB

and based on this, scenario (a) is driving Headphone X better? In other words, if both 1AM2s, capped and uncapped, achieve the same desired volume level for the user and there is still a decent amount of headroom left on the volume dial, are you saying the uncapped 1AM2 will still sound better with that particular headphone?

 

[ttt123]

So what you're saying is correct and very much obvious to anyone who's spent some time in the hobby. To exemplify, you are saying that:

- for example Headphone X, of average impendence and sensitivity, will be "more properly" driven by the Violectric V281 than by a good DAP

This is clear, to everyone.

But are you also saying (based on your second line) that:

a) - Headphone X is playing at volume 70 on the 1AM2 uncapped and this results in a volume of 80 dB
b) - Headphone X is playing at volume 70 (or 80 or 90) on the 1AM2 capped and this results in a volume of 80 dB

and based on this, scenario (a) is driving Headphone X better? In other words, if both 1AM2s, capped and uncapped, achieve the same desired volume level for the user and there is still a decent amount of headroom left on the volume dial, are you saying the uncapped 1AM2 will still sound better with that particular headphone?

Yes, I do. That is an opinion, based on my experiences in home audio. I do have an uncapped 1AM2, and do not have a capped 1AM2 to test against.

This is one of those subjects, like cables make no difference, nor do DACs/DAPs, Hi-Res files, etc., etc. There are believers for both sides of every subject. There will never be agreement. My observation is that too many people get overwrought on an opinion, and try to suppress all others.

I would personally have a hard time judging any opinion, as I have seen some of my viewpoints disproven, changed my beliefs over time, etc. So I am not looking for an argument, just saying that multiple opinions are normal in this hobby. I will not preach to others, and hope for the same from others.

 

[CaptainFantastic]

Yes, of course, I am not looking for an argument either, I only have and have only heard the uncapped version.

So you are saying that you have, and therefore heard obviously, the uncapped 1AM2. But you never heard the capped 1AM2 and yet you hold this belief based on your experience in home audio. In simple terms, if you have a minute, for a novice like me... why would this be happening? What else is the "capping" doing to the unit other than saying "you can't go past this volume level"?

 

[Flashbolt]

I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to get the 1AM2 to work as a usb dac in windows. I updated the driver but just can't seem to get any sound at all.

Any ideas?

[Edit: it looks like I had to go into the walkman app on the player and click on "usb dac" there and have it be active on the screen]

[Edit 2: Holy audio delay batman]

 

[Iggnasty]

I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to get the 1AM2 to work as a usb dac in windows. I updated the driver but just can't seem to get any sound at all.

Any ideas?

[Edit: it looks like I had to go into the walkman app on the player and click on "usb dac" there and have it be active on the screen]

[Edit 2: Holy audio delay batman]

Yep. It’s almost like watching a dubbed Chinese movie

 

[touzeen]

It is not only a volume thing. You can have enough power to create decibels and kill your ears but you don’t have enough juice to exploite your headphones. Each time I paired my DAPs with an external amp, sound was better (soundstage wise) despite a volume totally ok with the DAPs.

Thats the Amp coloring the sound. The DAP has its own inherent sound which you may or may not like.

 

[Patlezinc]

Coloring the sound can make the soundstage wider, deeper and enhanced the instruments separation? Tons of reviews mention what I said, I am just adding my own experience. DAP are not able to drive headphones at their full potential. It doesn’t mean than it is bad without an external amp, it is just better with.