[nanaholic]

@nanaholic
I don’t get your point. We all have sound preferences and same can be said with tuning. Good power in addition to excellent tuning wins every time. Are you telling me that the IER Z1R sounds worst out of your DMP Z1 than WM1Z? For instance, the Ibasso DX300MAX Ti has an even better tuning than the 1Z and it is much more powerful too. Every single headphones that I plugged into the Ti sounds better to me than out of my modified 1Z. Yes, that is maybe a preference but that’s also a fact to me. Hell it get pretty darn close to the sound of my modified DMP Z1 if you ask me.

The point is that it is simply a subjective preference and not a fact. What is good power and what is excellent tuning? There's are all subjective because 99/99% of the people who says these things have NEVER measured those things, they are just attributing what they hear as being true - which is conflating subjective preferences with objective fact.

Go back to the HD800 because this headphone perfectly demonstrates this and is also the phone which made me realise all the silliness of the "it sounds bad because it's not driven properly(and the reversely worded "the more power you give it the better it sounds"). The HD800t's one of those phones which is objectively measured excellent but one which I never liked. It's a phone I always listen to at events with amps of different price points but there's never a time I can listen to it for more than 2 minutes. "Oh you've just never listened to it driven proper with X amp/y cable/z dac" I was always told, because obviously it measures well and if you throw 100 grand at it how can it not sound good? This always bothered me - was there something wrong with my hearing? or am I just not sophisticated/experienced enough to "get" the HD800.

Then one day I saw an article about how all TVs have a store demo mode where the colours are more saturated than usual because statistically speaking people perceive vibrant colours being "better" and more attractive and prefer saturated colours over accurate colours, thus a TV with more saturated colours sells more/easier than one which is set to accurate colours. This instantly clicked with the engineer in my head - subjective preference and objective measures are absolutely NOT correlated. So no matter how the HD800 measures nor what equipment it gets paired with it doesn't matter - I don't know what it is exactly about the HD800 but I know I just don't like it. And I don't have to blame it on the gear being "not up to snuff to fully drive the HD800" or other nonsense like that, I don't like it as my own personal subjective preference. Just like how I don't like say, blue cheese. And because of this the flip is ALSO true, I can like something that is objectively measured terrible. The two sides are simply not correlated.

I then follow this line of thought and know that absolutely NOBODY has a colour measurement device goes to a store to test the accuracy of the TV before buying one, and when they do, they go home and eyeballs the brightness/contrast/saturation to what looks good to them and calls it a day, but would then attribute the beauty of the TV they bought being because it is a good TV on specs - and this is where the disconnection happens. I can say with confidence that 99.99% of the people have no objective data to say their TV is "better" than the other models they passed up on, they simply attributed it to the better specs without any data to back up any one it.

And audiophiles does the EXACT SAME THING with their gear.

99.99999999% of the time people have not measured the setup they are listening to, they are simply judging it with their own preferences but then attribute it to things they have absolutely no data to support, but they just don't want to admit it being subjective but rather they want confirmation that they aren't "wrong", because again, who wants to spend 100 grand on a setup and say "no it's actually bad".

And yes, I actually enjoyed the IER-Z1R out of the 60mW unbalanced output of my 1Z more than the 250mW balanced output, and I can proudly say that's just my taste without making false justification for it.

 

[dennarwhal]

I see many people here talking about power. I just bought a 4.4 to RCA cable so I can connect my WM1Z to my A90 to see if there is any changes. Im thinking not but we will see.

 

[Redcarmoose]

The point is that it is simply a subjective preference and not a fact. What is good power and what is excellent tuning? There's are all subjective because 99/99% of the people who says these things have NEVER measured those things, they are just attributing what they hear as being true - which is conflating subjective preferences with objective fact.

Go back to the HD800 because this headphone perfectly demonstrates this and is also the phone which made me realise all the silliness of the "it sounds bad because it's not driven properly(and the reversely worded "the more power you give it the better it sounds"). The HD800t's one of those phones which is objectively measured excellent but one which I never liked. It's a phone I always listen to at events with amps of different price points but there's never a time I can listen to it for more than 2 minutes. "Oh you've just never listened to it driven proper with X amp/y cable/z dac" I was always told, because obviously it measures well and if you throw 100 grand at it how can it not sound good? This always bothered me - was there something wrong with my hearing? or am I just not sophisticated/experienced enough to "get" the HD800.

Then one day I saw an article about how all TVs have a store demo mode where the colours are more saturated than usual because statistically speaking people perceive vibrant colours being "better" and more attractive and prefer saturated colours over accurate colours, thus a TV with more saturated colours sells more/easier than one which is set to accurate colours. This instantly clicked with the engineer in my head - subjective preference and objective measures are absolutely NOT correlated. So no matter how the HD800 measures nor what equipment it gets paired with it doesn't matter - I don't know what it is exactly about the HD800 but I know I just don't like it. And I don't have to blame it on the gear being "not up to snuff to fully drive the HD800" or other nonsense like that, I don't like it as my own personal subjective preference. Just like how I don't like say, blue cheese. And because of this the flip is ALSO true, I can like something that is objectively measured terrible. The two sides are simply not correlated.

I then follow this line of thought and know that absolutely NOBODY has a colour measurement device goes to a store to test the accuracy of the TV before buying one, and when they do, they go home and eyeballs the brightness/contrast/saturation to what looks good to them and calls it a day, but would then attribute the beauty of the TV they bought being because it is a good TV on specs - and this is where the disconnection happens. I can say with confidence that 99.99% of the people have no objective data to say their TV is "better" than the other models they passed up on, they simply attributed it to the better specs without any data to back up any one it.

And audiophiles does the EXACT SAME THING with their gear.

99.99999999% of the time people have not measured the setup they are listening to, they are simply judging it with their own preferences but then attribute it to things they have absolutely no data to support, but they just don't want to admit it being subjective but rather they want confirmation that they aren't "wrong", because again, who wants to spend 100 grand on a setup and say "no it's actually bad".

And yes, I actually enjoyed the IER-Z1R out of the 60mW unbalanced output of my 1Z more than the 250mW balanced output, and I can proudly say that's just my taste without making false justification for it.

The 3.5mm simply has a different tone. That’s all. You maybe gravitate towards that personality of tone? I would almost put money on you being a super low volume listener. Low gain and 40% (IER-Z1R) is my guess of how loud you listen? There is no right or wrong to this game. But there are clues to success at times.

 

[nanaholic]

Well, the other thing is volume used. Meaning that I have personal friends which have the IER-Z1R (2) which seem to not notice the power issue. But you know why? They are super super super low volume listeners. That is one way that it seems damping doesn’t matter as much. Of course it is subjective. The whole of Head-Fi IS subjective only. Except for those things that are proven, which is fairly small by some contrasts. And yes, there is a questionable angle to almost everything. If there wasn’t we could simply buy stuff and take someone else’s word for the quality in question. But yes, it’s totally a personal thing. Still we learn at least to take lessons from the group. If many people find at least something to have a piece of truth, then there may be something there. Why? Do to the possibility of many conclusions being parallel. Maybe not totally correct but there is a chance? We don’t need to waist anymore pixels on this debate. And I’m not questioning your interpretation of the power needed for your experience to happen! That’s the most important thing, that we do all share a common experience, though at times with different methodology.

Cheers!

Good we've reached the same page - that Head-Fi IS subjective only.

So we can clearly throw the whole "you need more power for DDs" into that subjective basket then.

The only important thing in Head-fi is to find people who shares the same subjective preference as yourself, else you would go nowhere with your endeavor - refer to my HD800 experience to see what I mean.

 

[nc8000]

I see many people here talking about power. I just bought a 4.4 to RCA cable so I can connect my WM1Z to my A90 to see if there is any changes. Im thinking not but we will see.

That will most likely not work and might actually damage the gear if you are unlucky since the 4.4 is balanced while (I assume) your rca inputs are single ended so you’ll be joining the active R- and L- from the 4.4 to the ground on the rca end. Unless the source component supports the ground on the 4.4 (which the original WM1 does not but it seems the new MK2 model do) and that ground is connected to ground on the rca

 

[nc8000]

Good we've reached the same page - that Head-Fi IS subjective only.

So we can clearly throw the whole "you need more power for DDs" into that subjective basket then.

The only important thing in Head-fi is to find people who shares the same subjective preference as yourself, else you would go nowhere with your endeavor - refer to my HD800 experience to see what I mean.

Well there is still the question of damping factor which is related to power but not volume

 

[nanaholic]

The 3.5mm simply has a different tone. That’s all. You maybe gravitate towards that personality of tone? I would almost put money on you being a super low volume listener. Low gain and 40% (IER-Z1R) is my guess of how loud you listen? There is no right or wrong to this game. But there are clues to success at times.

I actually know exactly why I prefer the unbalanced output.

I listened mostly to Jpop, which is known for poor mastering. The lower resolution of the unbalanced output masks the flaw of that, which makes me able to enjoy the music more and not focus on the flaws of the music.

Again perfectly demonstrating how subjective preference has no correlation with objective facts, and I don't have to make up BS reasons of how inadequate the gear is but rather I can correctly attribute the reason to my own subjective listening preferences.

 

[nanaholic]

Well there is still the question of damping factor which is related to power but not volume

Which doesn't matter either way, because in the end it still loops back to subjective preferences.

Don't tell me you've never heard of anyone preferring flabby fat bass over tight clean bass? To that person, flabby fat bass is "better" and he'll tell you that.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I actually know exactly why I prefer the unbalanced output.

I listened mostly to Jpop, which is known for poor mastering. The lower resolution of the unbalanced output masks the flaw of that, which makes me able to enjoy the music more and not focus on the flaws of the music.

Again perfectly demonstrating how subjective preference has no correlation with objective facts, and I don't have to make up BS reasons of how inadequate the gear is but rather I can correctly attribute the reason to my own subjective listening preferences.

Well, it’s quite interesting that you will not disclose you preferences to volume used. I will be happy to disclose mine. Reason being is it’s one of the clues about damping factor. And yes, I get that the 3.5mm port has a sound that is less drastic which promotes the quality of style of how the music was provided. Still I’m going to guess you are low gain and 40% of volume?

Do you get my point?

Edit:
Actually you don’t own the IER-Z1R? Why are we even talking?

 

[nanaholic]

Well, it’s quite interesting that you will not disclose you preferences to volume used. I will be happy to disclose mine. Reason being is it’s one of the clues about damping factor. And yes, I get that the 3.5mm port has a sound that is less drastic which promotes the quality of style of how the music was provided. Still I’m going to guess you are low gain and 40% of volume?

Do you get my point?

Edit:
Actually you don’t own the IER-Z1R? Why are we even talking?

I'm not answering because the volume is irrelevant - because surely you understand that low/high volume listening is ALSO a subjective preference?

It's all subjective preference galore, still nothing to prove that a higher output will drive a IER-Z1R in an objectively better way many would like to claim (especially those Chinese people).

 

[Redcarmoose]

I'm not answering because the volume is irrelevant - because surely you understand that low/high volume listening is ALSO a subjective preference?

It's all subjective preference galore, still nothing to prove that a higher output will drive a IER-Z1R in an objectively better way many would like to claim (especially those Chinese people).

Bye.

 

[nc8000]

Which doesn't matter either way, because in the end it still loops back to subjective preferences.

Don't tell me you've never heard of anyone preferring flabby fat bass over tight clean bass? To that person, flabby fat bass is "better" and he'll tell you that.

Yes the preference will always be subjective but there is a proven physical and measureable correlation between power and damping. So you have things you can measure and say this will work in this way and likely produce this result and can then be used to guess if a given piece of equipment or combination of equipment is likely to conform to my subjective preferences

 

[Redcarmoose]

Thank-you, can I send you a dollar?

Yes the preference will always be subjective but there is a proven physical and measureable correlation between power and damping. So you have things you can measure and say this will work in this way and likely produce this result and can then be used to guess if a given piece of equipment or compination of equipment is likely to conform to my subjective preferences

 

[nanaholic]

Yes the preference will always be subjective but there is a proven physical and measureable correlation between power and damping. So you have things you can measure and say this will work in this way and likely produce this result and can then be used to guess if a given piece of equipment or compination of equipment is likely to conform to my subjective preferences

Sure.

But do people actually look at the measurements (do they even have it?!) or do they just say it is so because "it sounds good to them therefore it is"?

My point is that it is nearly always the latter, and almost no one measures their setup to have that dampening factor data that you are claiming (because we know dampening factor changes depending on load connected as well).

Again why the whole IER-Z1R is such a good example, on spec it takes 100mW maximum, then why is 250mW not adequate like many claims (100% of the Chinese says that), that's making an objective conclusion with no data, rather instead it is based on a subjective preference.

Your line of reasoning doesn't address this point.

 

[dennarwhal]

That will most likely not work and might actually damage the gear if you are unlucky since the 4.4 is balanced while (I assume) your rca inputs are single ended so you’ll be joining the active R- and L- from the 4.4 to the ground on the rca end. Unless the source component supports the ground on the 4.4 (which the original WM1 does not but it seems the new MK2 model do) and that ground is connected to ground on the rca

Oh crap ok. I will cancel that order ASAP. Thanks for the headsup