[RCBinTN]

   
 
 
I was shocked how good the bass is on the HD800 once put through SWR3. So deep and powerful, and far more representative of the source.
 
Which leads me to, at the risk of repetition, having to stress that the HD800 stock is categorically—unequivocally—not accurate. Accuracy defined as a 1:1 representation of the sound as intended.
 
They do not go as deep as the music calls for, either.
 
I'm talking from a technical perspective as someone who produces/mixes music using calibrated (flat) studio monitors in a treated room, and have heard plenty of other (£££) studio setups. The HD800 gets close using EQ/Sonarworks (close enough to produce on at night, but certainly not for mixing and mastering), yet still lack lower extension.
 
Clipping is technique used in the mastering process in which to increase the average RMS of a track (think: loudness wars). The first thing to suffer during clipping is the low end. I was working on a track via the HD800 (using Sonarworks) and clipped until I heard low end starting to suffer (lessen), then backed off so it was unnoticeable via instant A/B switch. Swapped to the studio monitors and it was clear it was entirely overworked, so much juice being missing at the low end.
 
As I said before, enjoying the sound of the HD800 is up to each person, but labelling them accurate is an inaccurate (and misleading to others) statement :¬)

Caveat: I adore the HD800 via SWR3. So much in fact it's put me off auditioning the Utopia thus far.

Caveat 2: To those trialling SWR3 - let the sound burn in with your ears for a while—at least a few days—before you flick back to the stock HD800 sound to compare. 

 
You're right, thanks for clarifying. I went back and read my full post, and realized I had omitted the always important caveats of IMHO and YMMV.
 
After reading all the comments about SW, I plan to try it out. As Matt wrote, there's a free trial so nothing to lose and, it sounds like, a lot to gain. Thanks all.
 
Cheers,
RCB

 

[Yoga]

   
You're right, thanks for clarifying. I went back and read my full post, and realized I had omitted the always important caveats of IMHO and YMMV.
 
After reading all the comments about SW, I plan to try it out. As Matt wrote, there's a free trial so nothing to lose and, it sounds like, a lot to gain. Thanks all.
 
Cheers,
RCB

Enjoy! 

Essential tip: Make sure 'Avoid Clipping' is enabled (switch below output meter on right hand side). That'll counteract the increased gain of the EQ and prevent digital clipping (which sounds like suddenly dropping to a horrifically encoded MP3) . You'll have to turn your volume up to compensate.

If you decide to go with SWR3, this is worth the small investment of $49:

https://www.rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/

Very good audio quality. I tried the free alternative and it was skipping/popping at the same sample rate. Flawless through AJ.

 

[Zoom25]

Well...?

It worked via Audirvana Plus and played fine after tweaking around. Took about 5 mins to get the hang of all the settings. I'm reviewing Sonarworks on three aspects: transparency, phase/imaging, tonality.
 
 
Tonality:
 
This is my thought on tonality on both headphones and speakers: If you can get it relatively close enough to an ideal flat signature (taking FR and reverberation time into account), then for at least casual listening you'll be good enough. For very accurate work, individual calibration will be needed. Honestly, tonality is not the biggest thing as long as you're very close to the ballpark. After that, let time do it's thing. You'll end up getting used to it. 
 
Transparency:
 
I know that affecting tonality at first can seem like things have become more detailed or less detailed depending on how you do it. So it's crucial to take your time and not mistake tonality changes for decrease/increase in transparency.
 
Phase Issues:
 
In general, the PC outputting audio via USB through any software has always been a SOLID step below what the Bryston BDP-1 via AES can deliver. Same goes for transparency. BDP-1 sounds super relaxed, clear, and fatigue free. It must be heard.
 
 
Actual Initial impressions
- Between the BDP-1, Amphions, and HD 800 usage, I have become very sensitive to phase issues, and thus going between the (min, mixed, and linear filters) was very clear. I'm currently on linear. It produces the tightest image, although I think it may also be doing something else that's not as clean as straight output without Sonarworks, and definitely not BDP-1 level...but still good for casual use. I'll see if I can get used to it.
- Tonality wise, I'm set to neutral profile and playing around with the wet/dry settings. I think I'm at 70%. The improvements in tonality might just be enough to overlook the lack in transparency/phase problems. I think most people won't be bothered by the phase thing like I am. The tonality is really well done based on previous applications trying to do similar things.
- More bass, relaxed treble, although perhaps very, very slightly recessed mids. LMFAOOOO I swear this is like an LCD-2.2 pre-fazor kind of vibe.
- I'll continue to update as time goes on.
- Soundstage: It perhaps changed a bit, but it's not of concern. It's negligible at this current (macro) stage. When I start nitpicking later on, maybe then I'll factor it in.
 
What I would ultimately like to have:
- Run everything through the BDP-1 as usual and go for an amp that can get it close enough in tonality, while retaining the transparency, low noise floor, and lack of phase issues of BDP-1. I'm not convinced that Sonarworks is the cleanest thing out there, especially compared to something like Trinnov or just plain BDP-1. It is a trade-off that I'll have to figure out for myself.
- I'd be curious to see Amarra come out with a HD 800 EQ as well. Amarra SQ comes with EQ for other headphones as well.
- Time after time I have found that the less you mess with the signal in the digital realm, the cleaner it remains without artifacts.
 
 
TL;DR: Good in terms of tonality so far. Cautious about phase issues and ultimately transparency (compared to BDP-1).
 
EDIT: For the deepest bass extension, I ultimately cannot hit it without the BDP-1. Mac w/ or w/o Sonarworks still cannot get as low. The BDP-1 delivers such pure focused distortion-free bass that it becomes very noticeable every time I switch to Mac. Sonarworks essentially thickens up the bass a bit, but still can't get that low. It's both a hearing and feeling things.

 

[fjrabon]

Enjoy! 


Essential tip: Make sure 'Avoid Clipping' is enabled (switch below output meter on right hand side). That'll counteract the increased gain of the EQ and prevent digital clipping (which sounds like suddenly dropping to a horrifically encoded MP3) . You'll have to turn your volume up to compensate.


If you decide to go with SWR3, this is worth the small investment of $49:

https://www.rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/


Very good audio quality. I tried the free alternative and it was skipping/popping at the same sample rate. Flawless through AJ.

One super cool thing too is how versatile audiohijack is. You can individually route different programs to different outputs, you can (if you want) individually EQ left and right sides in the mix, one thing I've used it for is to send the audio to a recorder and created sonarworks "remixes" with crossfeed built in, that I can then play in my portable player/phone. It's great as a platform to get sonarworks into your mix, but is way more versatile than that as well.

 

[fjrabon]

Is there any way to run Sonarworks on a portable system, i.e., without being tethered to a PC or MAC via a USB?

Yes, if you're using audiohijack to get sonarworks into your system, you can simply take tracks you want on your portable player and have the output recorded (instead of or in addition to being sent to your DAC) and this will record "remixed with sonarworks" versions of your music that can gen be saved to your portable player. They're talking about a phone version of sonarworks, but I don't know where development stands with that as of now. I know they asked for beta testers for android (but I don't use android).

 

[JaZZ]

 

  One thing that still surprises me is that once properly EQ'd, my hd800 is my go to headphone for EDM, or any music with deep bass. Nothing comes that close really. Deep, powerful and clean bass at this level is not an easy feat. It's ironic that for years I used to consider the hd800 bass light. 

 
You will never go back to the hd800 once you hear adam a7x and sub8. Near/midfield so no bothering your neighbor's, maybe spouse though. Active so no expensive separate amps, something like my Sangaku or gsx-mk2 is plenty. No expensive speaker wire's something as simple as my proaudiola/mogami cable's xlr or rca is plenty.
 
Lcd-X is much better to me with electronic and rap than hd800. You might be able to get the Lcd-X impact with eq and the hd800 but you will not get the weight. I put the Lcd-X in a 3 year, yes 3 year contest with electronic and rap against the Adam's. Adam's won.

 
I can't speak for the LCD-X, but compared to my modified and carefully equalized HE1000, my modified and carefully equalized HD 800 delivers about the same bass impact and weight. I really think it's a matter of adequate equalizing.
 
While I agree that speakers may sound more realistic in every respect, some music lovers are into headphones for some or the other reason, so there's no point in arguing.

 

[Yoga]

One super cool thing too is how versatile audiohijack is. You can individually route different programs to different outputs, you can (if you want) individually EQ left and right sides in the mix, one thing I've used it for is to send the audio to a recorder and created sonarworks "remixes" with crossfeed built in, that I can then play in my portable player/phone. It's great as a platform to get sonarworks into your mix, but is way more versatile than that as well.

Nice idea. 
 
Yes it's a very versatile app. Great for recording video/audio streams too if the need arises.
 
@Zoom25  - What chain(s) are you using to compare? Could there be other factors affecting the sound?

The Lumin A1 (network DAC) offers incredibly natural and organic sound. Moving away from PC/Mac audio was a huge benefit in terms of tonality and transparency. I've found that the Dangerous Convert-2 and RME ADI-2 Pro (via the Uptone Regen) have gotten close to that via the hackintosh. I'm hoping the Solaris/Avocett IIA manages to surpass it.
 
Side note: I also run SWR3 in Linear mode. As should everyone, it's more accurate for playback (the other modes are designed for low latency work or a compromise between the two).

 

[Zoom25]

 
Nice idea. 
 
Yes it's a very versatile app. Great for recording video/audio streams too if the need arises.
 
@Zoom25  - What chain(s) are you using to compare? Could there be other factors affecting the sound?

The Lumin A1 (network DAC) offers incredibly natural and organic sound. Moving away from PC/Mac audio was a huge benefit in terms of tonality and transparency. I've found that the Dangerous Convert-2 and RME ADI-2 Pro (via the Uptone Regen) have gotten close to that via the hackintosh. I'm hoping the Solaris/Avocett IIA manages to surpass it.
 
Side note: I also run SWR3 in Linear mode. As should everyone, it's more accurate for playback (the other modes are designed for low latency work or a compromise between the two).

I'm using the shortest chain I possibly can: Source (BDP-1 or Mac running Audirvana Plus) -> same DAC/headphone amplifier -> power amp -> monitors
 
Dangerous Music Source w/Teradak LPS -> Grimm Audio interconnects; all Amphion amp, cables, monitors. Headphones plugged straight into Dangerous Source for the time being.
 
P.S. Aside from the Convert-2 and Solaris, I think the Bryston BDA-3 might be worth checking out.

 

[Zoom25]

Side Question: Has anyone been able to run Sonarworks on OS 10.6.8?

 

[fjrabon]

  Side Question: Has anyone been able to run Sonarworks on OS 10.6.8?

I've had every single iteration of OSX, as I'm on the beta program, and I've never had Sonarworks have any issue with any of them.  I know at one point I was running 10.6.8, and I know I didn't have any problems, but I can't tell you exactly when that was.  I am currently on 10.12.3 (beta 4)

 

[Zoom25]

 
I've had every single iteration of OSX, as I'm on the beta program, and I've never had Sonarworks have any issue with any of them.  I know at one point I was running 10.6.8, and I know I didn't have any problems, but I can't tell you exactly when that was.  I am currently on 10.12.3 (beta 4)

It doesn't seem to be working on my older 10.6.8 iMac. I'll contact Sonarworks and see if there is a workaround. On one part of their website, the minimum is listed as 10.7
 
https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207238685-What-are-the-minimum-system-requirements-for-Sonarworks-software-

 

[Yoga]

  I'm using the shortest chain I possibly can: Source (BDP-1 or Mac running Audirvana Plus) -> same DAC/headphone amplifier -> power amp -> monitors
 
Dangerous Music Source w/Teradak LPS -> Grimm Audio interconnects; all Amphion amp, cables, monitors. Headphones plugged straight into Dangerous Source for the time being.
 
P.S. Aside from the Convert-2 and Solaris, I think the Bryston BDA-3 might be worth checking out.

 
Thanks. Are you running your HD800 SE or balanced?

Balanced via the V281 was a serious upgrade to the sound.
 
P.S. enjoying the thread/website crossover there! The IIA is top of the list as I'm in need of a monitor controller. Finding myself tempted by the Base25 Two18 Amphion system too. Off to demo it next week. Erk!
 
Edit: Snow Leopard - my fave OSX. All downhill since then.

 

[MickeyVee]

Wow, a lot of modding and/or EQ talked about. Agree, bass is outstanding with the HD800 and pretty much unappreciated.
 
I've been following this forum {as well as the HD800S and Utopia threads} but have stayed pretty quite as I believe I've hit my personal end game. I've had my HD800 for about three years now and finally hit the full satisfaction curve once I got my McIntosh MXA70 {same as the MHA100 but with matching speakers}. My chain is basically a 2012 MacMini with an SSD {really quiet}, Audirvana Plus on top of iTunes into the McIntosh with a AuioQuest Carbon USB cable.  Using the HD800 ADL cable with the carbon/rhodium connectors.
 
Totally satisfied and just to appease my interest, tried the HD800S and Edition X for a couple of weeks.. not for me; tried EQ'ing with Audirvana.. nope; tried the Dupont Resonator mod.. again, not for me and from what I've read, I'm probably the only one Still open to other possibilities but HP GAS is gone. Just enjoying the music.
 
I probably lucked out with system synergy: I can set the headphone impedance on the McIntosh and set the Bass Boost to +2.5 dB with is subtle but noticeable. I also really lucked out with the McIntosh when I got it at the TAVES Show in Toronto a few years ago.  It would cost me twice as much now as I paid for it then.
 
As you can tell, I really love the HD800 and hope others find their HD800 nirvana!

 

[Zoom25]

   
Thanks. Are you running your HD800 SE or balanced?

Balanced via the V281 was a serious upgrade to the sound.
 
P.S. enjoying the thread/website crossover there! The IIA is top of the list as I'm in need of a monitor controller. Finding myself tempted by the Base25 Two18 Amphion system too. Off to demo it next week. Erk!
 
Edit: Snow Leopard - my fave OSX. All downhill since then.

The HD 800 are being run single-ended. I have done balanced before with Hifiman and Audeze, including speaker amp taps. I am familiar with what all of that brings. I kind of gave up on headphones after having multiple speaker rigs. It seems like a hassle putting it on. I've been meaning to try the Focal Elear and Utopia, but keep putting it off. I still like tweaking to get the best sound, but that's now reserved for the speaker setup. With headphones, its more for casual use. I'll be sure to incorporate the Sonarworks in my audition.
 
I must say I'm enjoying Sonarworks on the macro scale and what it does to the vibe/sound. I'll leave the nitpicking stuff for the GS/monitors thread.
 
Good luck with the Amphion audition. It took me quite a bit of time to get my Amphions to sound their best. I've spent 50+ hours tweaking and chatting with Anssi. Hopefully, they'll be setup correct where you are auditioning them. I've also made up my mind about getting the BaseOne25 after talking to someone using them with One15. No third party subs.
 
EDIT: Out of all the variables I've mentioned, I'm most curious about having a LCD-2 back again. I swear this HD 800 with Sonarworks reminds me a lot about my LCD-2.2 and how groovy it can get! Kind of like with my HD 598 where I know it's well below the HD 800, but you can still enjoy it on whole and jam out.

 

[jibzilla]

   
I can't speak for the LCD-X, but compared to my modified and carefully equalized HE1000, my modified and carefully equalized HD 800 delivers about the same bass impact and weight. I really think it's a matter of adequate equalizing.
 
While I agree that speakers may sound more realistic in every respect, some music lovers are into headphones for some or the other reason, so there's no point in arguing.

 
It is not a headphone/ speaker thing. It is that rap and electronic really benefit from a bass that you can hear and feel even if it is at low listening levels (my adam's never get really loud). The closest I have found to reproducing a nice meaty bass is the Lcd-X and it is by quite the margin over the hd800. I had the he1k for a month, the Lcd-X has more bass weight. If you like electronic and eq then eq that headphone. The X is also better with synths and drums than the hd800 which is also important for electronic and rap.
 
It is also about forgiveness. The hd800 is very unforgiving. You probably will not find a bigger fan of electronic and rap, and as much as I hate to say it is not mastered very well. Lcd's and Adam's are quite a bit more forgiving.
 
I'm all for tweaking and eq but when you are talking about taking something that is the polar opposite of what you need I think you are really pushing your luck for no reason. The hd800 has a treble spike and anemic bass stock. The polar opposite of what you want for electronic and rap.
 
The who's who of dnb producers and dj's chose the Lcd-2 and this is while the hd800 is available. If you want an all arounder get the he-500 or 007mk1. Very little eq needed with those 2 headphones for any genre. The hd800 is the rock king and from what I have heard classical.