[Krutsch]

Hi All,
 
I recently got back into vinyl by unboxing my 30 year-old Thorens TD-166 Mk II. Was gently stored, in great shape and, after replacing the drive belt and cleaning all of the contacts with De-oxit, it just worked. Looks nice, too.
 
I replaced the cart with an inexpensive Ortofon 2M Red, using a stylus force gauge and a mirror-type alignment protector. I am using an NAD C 162 pre-amp as the phono stage. From there, it's into my head-fi rig.
 
Question: I want to *gently* upgrade my vinyl playback chain and am wondering where to start. Do I look into a better cartridge, a better phono stage or do I need to really replace the deck itself (along with the cart and phono pre)?
 
Thanks, in advance...

 

[serman005]

You've asked the million-dollar question in vinyl playback. You wanted to challenge us, didn't you?

 Well, really, I think most vinyl officianados would say that the whole system is so interconnected and interrelated that picking which element to begin upgrading an existing system is nearly impossible. That said, if I were in your shoes I think what I would do is find a nice but not extravagant turntable with a good tonearm first. If you get a good tonearm, you can always easily install a better cartridge, but putting an excellent cartridge on a mediocre tonearm just makes no sense to me. Get what cartridge you can afford (or use what you now have) and upgrade that as funds are available, IMO. Now, that gets us to the phono stage. If you're happy with the NAD you don't need to do anything. But if you want to optimize your system, the whole system, you may want to look at upgrading the phono stage at some point. I would do this after acquiring the table and tonearm, personally.
 
That's the order in which I would do it. Others will undoubtedly have a different order, but that is mine. I wish you luck.

 

[Krutsch]

  You've asked the million-dollar question in vinyl playback. You wanted to challenge us, didn't you?

 Well, really, I think most vinyl officianados would say that the whole system is so interconnected and interrelated that picking which element to begin upgrading an existing system is nearly impossible. That said, if I were in your shoes I think what I would do is find a nice but not extravagant turntable with a good tonearm first. If you get a good tonearm, you can always easily install a better cartridge, but putting an excellent cartridge on a mediocre tonearm just makes no sense to me. Get what cartridge you can afford (or use what you now have) and upgrade that as funds are available, IMO. Now, that gets us to the phono stage. If you're happy with the NAD you don't need to do anything. But if you want to optimize your system, the whole system, you may want to look at upgrading the phono stage at some point. I would do this after acquiring the table and tonearm, personally.
 
That's the order in which I would do it. Others will undoubtedly have a different order, but that is mine. I wish you luck.

 
Thanks for the reply. For what it's worth, I replaced the stock wand (leading part of the tone arm with a Schopper replacement piece:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161972070224?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
...which claims to be an improvement; but I really bought it to make it reasonable to use standard mounted carts with the existing deck. The original Thorens head-shell only mounts from the bottom.
 
But, I suspect the real answers is what you are getting at, which is: start with the deck and tonearm, then cartridge and then, as funds allow, a new phono stage.

 

[musikevan]

The Thorens TD166  lends itself well to tweaking... I used to mod em with great results. Remove and discard the cardboard baseplate, install cheap but sturdy feet, Adjust the suspension springs to "float" while level in all planes. Make certain you have enough good oil in the bearing well, and the belt is snug.  Some folks add damping (dynamat) to the chassis underside but I never thought it needed it. Remove the dust cover. Isolate on a stable, vibration-free shelf far away from parasitic vibrations from your amps power transformers, etc... use a stethoscope!   This should improve things dramatically!    A better phono stage would help. 
 
Look here: http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_tweaks.htm
 
 
FYI, a Grace 707 tonearm is a nice upgrade, and fits in the TD166 armboard with minimal effort, but you'll lose the table's arm-lift switch feature. Noise is reduced, dynamics improved, tracks better than the thorens arm.

 

[Krutsch]

^^ Thanks for that...!
 
I have replaced the belt, but i need to look into the bearing well and isolation feet. Right now, I have the deck sitting on Vibrapods and I only use this 'table with my headphone rig, so no big power amps nearby or speaker/sub to provide vibration.
 
Great comments!

 

[Krutsch]

  ...
 
Look here: http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_tweaks.htm
 
...

 
Oh and, wow, great link!

 

[Krutsch]

After speaking with a few people, I was convinced the next step was an improved phone stage. So, I picked-up a Vincent PHO-8 + PHO-8ps.
 
Wow... I am impressed. I wan't expecting that much of a sound improvement.
 
Another suggestion was to add a lightweight, friction-base record clamp - avoids adding significant weight to the Thorens suspension system, but addresses the sub-par rubber mat.
 
Anyway, I am enjoying the upgrades and my next step is an Audio-Technica AT440ML, but that's for another "discretionary spend cycle".
 
How 'bout a photo? The stand-alone PS is off to the left...
 

 

[musikevan]

I've found the greatest improvement comes from a proper suspension adjust. Thorens used a quality swiss motor, but it's the 3 point coil spring suspension that greatly reduces rumble and noise, and elivates this table to high-end tier. Also very important to set VTA and tracking force correctly. Unlike other components in the audio chain, the greatest improvements may actually cost nothing but some time and effort for a precise setup.

 

[Krutsch]

I've found the greatest improvement comes from a proper suspension adjust. Thorens used a quality swiss motor, but it's the 3 point coil spring suspension that greatly reduces rumble and noise, and elivates this table to high-end tier. Also very important to set VTA and tracking force correctly. Unlike other components in the audio chain, the greatest improvements may actually cost nothing but some time and effort for a precise setup.

 
I will Google around on how to adjust the suspension; wasn't aware that was something I should be doing.
 
I am hopeful that I've correctly set overhang, VTF and VTA. For VTF, I used a Shure force gauge and have the current cart set at 1.5g w/ a matching anti-skate to the same value. For overhang, I used a mirror-type protractor, but it's done "by eye" so I ;m not sure how well I did. For VTA, I used the Thorens alignment shell thingy; I have shims to add as spacers, but I'm still learning how all of this works.
 
I will say this: it was a learning experience to play around with VTF and anti-skate and hearing different levels of distortion. I suspect I still need to work on either overhang or VTA, because on a few records I am hearing distortion on inner tracks.

 

[musikevan]

You're on the right path! Cartridge shims should be avoided---there are two hex nuts located at the base of the tonearm, one in rear and one to the right on the arm base. I use a small hex driver. Be sure to support the top of the arm gimbal as you loosen them. You can then easily raise or lower the arm assembly to set VTA. Retighten when done.

 

[Krutsch]

You're on the right path! Cartridge shims should be avoided---there are two hex nuts located at the base of the tonearm, one in rear and one to the right on the arm base. I use a small hex driver. Be sure to support the top of the arm gimbal as you loosen them. You can then easily raise or lower the arm assembly to set VTA. Retighten when done.

Thanks... I didn't know those were there. Funny, no mention of this in the product manual.