[Bepli]

Sorry I don't understand how can one get any idea how those headphones sound viia a you tube video using a third pair of headphones totally different to the 2 on the video through whatever amp etc the listener has at hand ?

Virtual listening; a new concept to me

Maybe I'm thick?

Edit +. tried it and suprising I don't think that sounds anything like my HD600s, listening to it as I am via. a pair of £20 headphones on my mobile phone. Although I must admit I have never listened to them under water.

Conclusion: It's a load of bollox

Actually those videos are not supposed to show you how a headphone sounds, but how it sounds compared to other headphones he did a recording of. If you listen to 2 headphone demos he did you can make out differences and thats the point. Those videos are not made for hearing how one headphone sounds. Obvsly that wouldnt work since there so many different products in the chain, His DAC->AMP->Headphone->Microphone->Youtube->Your DAC->AMP->Headphone. So its just to be able to hear differences compared to other headphones he already recorded.

 

[god-bluff]

Actually those videos are not supposed to show you how a headphone sounds, but how it sounds compared to other headphones he did a recording of.

Right sorry I think I understand
As I said I am a bit thick (meaning stupid) sometimes

 

[MrMan]

The one thing that isn't subjective about the hd800 is the soundstage is bigger then probably 99% of the headphones out. I say 99% because I haven't heard a wider stage and I've been to 2 meets, owned the hd800 and owned numerous other headphones. As for detail that part is subjective.

 

[god-bluff]

Yes comparing the headphone with the widest soundstage to one of the more narrow in the open headphone world can only have one conclusion. No need to test for that outcome.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Actually those videos are not supposed to show you how a headphone sounds, but how it sounds compared to other headphones he did a recording of. If you listen to 2 headphone demos he did you can make out differences and thats the point. Those videos are not made for hearing how one headphone sounds. Obvsly that wouldnt work since there so many different products in the chain, His DAC->AMP->Headphone->Microphone->Youtube->Your DAC->AMP->Headphone. So its just to be able to hear differences compared to other headphones he already recorded.

Exactly. It would be like getting two toilet paper rolls affixing them onto your eyes, and looking around outside. You do get some character insights of perception, but it has it's limits in the end. Z reviews are great entertainment. He is also honest and inspired in this hobby.

But the only reason headphones sound good at times is due to the fact that they resolve detail. It's this same level of wrong detail "style" which could keep someone from liking the Sennheiser HD800 with the wrong amp.

It's also a fact that some folks simply fall in love with the Sennheiser HD650 or HD600. This hobby is all about very small details, which your never going to learn about from You-tube. Going to a meet gets a bunch of experience but you will find it's still confusing knowing what you want even after owning a pair of headphones for a 6 month period. It's all about mixing and matching equipment and headphones in relation to the focused musical genre used.


No way are you going to get to know how you would respond without using your own system and your own music to judge the effects of the sound signature. Everyone has different hearing and everyone is looking into slightly different sound signatures. Folks are also on trajectories which are either heading towards or away from certain sound signatures.

Everyone has their own learning curve and your pretty much guaranteed your going to like something slightly different after years doing this. That is one reason members backtrack on purchases and repurchase headphones they already owned. We are never fully happy as nothing is completely perfect. What we are left with is momentary satisfaction interspersed with times of grand euphoria thinking we found gold.

 

[16610]

Thanks for all the valuable comments.

The methodology is flawed because of multiple variables.
Different DAC/Amps would make a slight difference, but even using the same DAC/Amp, the measuring system is not perfect so it tweaks the original sound.
On top of that you'll hear them with your headphones that will tweak the sound once again, so what you get is not how the headphone actually sounds.

You can only get a very slight idea on how the two headphones compare (A is brighter than B for instance)

SE535 is on the darkish/smooth side of neutral and so is the HD600, so what you get listening to HD600's signature through SE535's signature is a "double darkish" signature which surely is way to dark.

Anyway, HD800 is more detail oriented than HD600.
If you want HD800's kind of signature on a smaller budget then check the Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro. They are very similar in terms of sound signature.
Latest K702 is slightly different in terms of tonality but it's surprisingly close to HD800 in overall performance.

Of course you wouldn't hear what the headphones actually sound. But I can hear one is brighter and has more pronunciation on specific tones.. while the other sounds more flat. When I listened to the HD600 on this video, and then the HD800, I felt like I was really pointed at specific details. It was really coming out. Then of course, I heard the same on the HD600 but at first I didn't even notice. Like again, the HD600 was a bit shy in those sounds. It is there, but it's not really confident like "YO!! I am here, listen to me. Hear how great I sound"...

You can try it yourself with the example I gave upstairs.

Again, for what it's worth.... The problem is that I live in a country where audiophiles seem to be rare species; we've a so called hi-fi store in town but its full of commercial trash. I've listened to the B&W P9 wireless at that store and to me it sounded like complete garbage. So dynamic, and wanna-be. Just horrible. Any studio headphone at $200 with a decent amp will blow the crap out of this commercial heap. And yeh of course it sounds good if it was €350 but no more.


So I can't really compare anything before buying 2-3 units and go through all the hassle returning two of them.

Anyway, it's surprising you're actually recommending me quite cheap headphones. Similar soundstage I believe, but it won't be the same performance as HD800 I guess..

Actually those videos are not supposed to show you how a headphone sounds, but how it sounds compared to other headphones he did a recording of. If you listen to 2 headphone demos he did you can make out differences and thats the point. Those videos are not made for hearing how one headphone sounds. Obvsly that wouldnt work since there so many different products in the chain, His DAC->AMP->Headphone->Microphone->Youtube->Your DAC->AMP->Headphone. So its just to be able to hear differences compared to other headphones he already recorded.

Well this is exactly what I meant. To know one has a specific emphasis on specific sounds. One has a specific signature while another one is more neutral. But this already is more than enough to get an idea how a specific set of cans will sound with a specific kind of music. I like rock and vocals, so I don't need a very warm blues sound. That's it.

 

[goodvibes]

So how come I could hear much clearer and present vocals in the HD800 video? While the HD600 sounds more flat.

From 11:50 in the HD800 video you can hear the kick on the plate very crispy. Now hear the same in the HD600 video at 8:35

In the HD600 video you can hear it too, but it's like it's a bit shy and hidden behind the sound of the drum.

I could only hear the difference with my SE535. Obviously you can't on the internal speakers.

I guess your 535s are better than both of those. Problem solved.

 

[god-bluff]

..the HD600 was a bit shy in those sounds. It is there, but it's not really confident like "YO!! I am here, listen to me. Hear how great I sound"...

I think you ought to get out in the real world and try or buy a pair of HD600. I don't think they will disappoint. They sound correct, neutral and natural. Nothing added or taken and no veil
Imho

 

[Me x3]

Anyway, it's surprising you're actually recommending me quite cheap headphones. Similar soundstage I believe, but it won't be the same performance as HD800 I guess..

I'm serious when I say K702 is very close to HD800 in terms of overall performance.
It's not just the big open soundstage, but also they share a neutralish and detail oriented sound signature with very low harmonic distortion across the whole spectrum.
They both sound good with quality recordings and are typically unforgiving otherwise.
After several A/Bing with my (late serial number) K702 and my HD800, using quality recordings strictly, it's normally hard to say which one sounds better.

The HD800 is a little bit more transparent in the sense of being a slightly clearer window into the music, but more often than not, the K702 has a slightly fuller and more natural tonality.
HD800 is slightly drier overall.

To put this into subjective numbers, I would say the K702 gets you 90% of HD800's technical performance.
And depending on your preferences and recordings, it can be even more pleasing.

Of course, the HD800 has a fancier box, fancier cable, fancier materials, it's more exclusive and made in Germany.

In terms of comfort and fit both are quite similar as well, I tend to favour the headband on the HD800 which is more padded.
HD800 is very big with little clamp so you can't move around much with them on. AKG K702 on the other hand has a more secure fit on the head (without clamping too hard like HD600/650)

As I've said before, DT880 Pro is extremely close to HD800 in terms of sound signature, more so than the K702.
But it's a semi-open headphone that beside the frequency response, it doesn't share much with the HD800. The soundstage is smaller and not as layered, bass and mids are not as clean.
I would say it's 95% of HD800 in terms of sound signature, but more of a 75% in terms of overall technical performance.

HD600 is pretty much an opposite headphone to HD800/K702/DT880.
It's slightly mid-bassy, with forward upper mids and soft treble. It's also very compact in terms of soundstage.

I think SE535 should be more along the lines of HD600/650 than HD800/K702/DT880

Sound signature preference is very important, often more than technical performance.

 

[cskippy]

Long story short, it doesn't work well doing this comparison. The mics and AD gear are actually the weak link here along with WAY to many variables in both his chain and anyone else listening. That said...

I think the HD600 sound more natural than the HD800 when comparing them which does agree with real life listening. I have listened to both and shocker, I don't own the HD600 and am actually getting an HD800 with SDR soon. So what does that say? One, you need to pick headphones based on your own sound preferences and two, your needs. I'm purchasing the HD800 as a critical listening tool for mixing as another reference point.

 

[JoePR31]

"Headphones aren't going to pull out sounds that were never on a recording to begin with."

"There is no equivalent in audio where high-resolution audio recording will provide details on "high resolution headphones" that aren't audible in "low res headphones." Headphone manufacturers try to convince you otherwise with 5k/10k/50k headphones, but it's never going to happen because that's not how audition works".

Of course, if the information is not in the recording, a headphone can't play it back. But are you really saying that there are no headphones that are better than others at revealing faint or subtle details in music??

 

[HumbleMan]

Of course, if the information is not in the recording, a headphone can't play it back. But are you really saying that there are no headphones that are better than others at revealing faint or subtle details in music??

I'm saying that I've never heard details in a 4-figure headphone (or in 5-figure audio equipment) that I couldn't hear in a 2-figure headphone. 99.9% of the music you listen to, when monitored, mixed, or mastered on headphones, is created on headphones that cost <$100. The MDRV6. The K240. The MDR7506. That's standard gear in studios backed by multi-billion dollar record companies. Their jobs are to decide exactly what sounds, faint, loud, subtle, and obvious and preserve it onto CDs. People with more experience curating music than 1,000 "audiophiles" do this for a living all year long for decades. We aren't hearing any details they didn't already. Of course there are differences in what different headphones emphasize, but you don't need 4- or 5-figure headphones to hear anything that's ever been recorded in the history of recorded music. There are many, many sub-$100 headphones that will do, and they're used by the people who made all of our favorite music.

 

[Me x3]

I'm saying that I've never heard details in a 4-figure headphone (or in 5-figure audio equipment) that I couldn't hear in a 2-figure headphone. 99.9% of the music you listen to, when monitored, mixed, or mastered on headphones, is created on headphones that cost <$100. The MDRV6. The K240. The MDR7506. That's standard gear in studios backed by multi-billion dollar record companies. Their jobs are to decide exactly what sounds, faint, loud, subtle, and obvious and preserve it onto CDs. People with more experience curating music than 1,000 "audiophiles" do this for a living all year long for decades. We aren't hearing any details they didn't already. Of course there are differences in what different headphones emphasize, but you don't need 4- or 5-figure headphones to hear anything that's ever been recorded in the history of recorded music. There are many, many sub-$100 headphones that will do, and they're used by the people who made all of our favorite music.

I won't say you're entirely wrong because you are not, but I think you're going a bit too far.
I think you can indeed hear more texture and layering in the bass with an HD800 vs a trusty HD600. From a technical point of view the bass on HD600 is less linear and has higher level of THD. From a subjective perspective after owning both for an extended period of time, I've always heard HD600's bass more wooly/more monotone than HD800's bass. Same would apply to the treble which is more extended on the HD800 and thus you can spot background hiss and very high frequency information much easily.

While it's true that most studios use some of the headphones you've listed, there's also audiophile studios which use other headphones.
This album for instance was mixed using K702 and HD800 (not V6/K240/7506). I've heard of other studios using HD800/HD800SDR and other pricey headphones.
Normally those who make music almost exclusively for the audiophile community.

Anyway (most of the times) it's not about what you're able to hear ("hey, there's a drum back there!") but how can you hear that drum.
It's true that a very cheap (and quite good) Takstar HI-2050 will spot that drum, but a K702 will give it better timing and separation.

 

[Nells]

Lol, a lot of rather intense HD600 favoritism in this thread. I've owned both the 600 and 800 and while it's a valid opinion to prefer either one for their sound signature, the HD800 has disgusting levels of detail that the already competent HD600 can't emulate. It doesn't matter if you think it's bright or sterile or lifeless, even if that's true, in that one aspect it's the superior headphone.

But opinions I guess

 

[HumbleMan]

I won't say you're entirely wrong because you are not, but I think you're going a bit too far.
I think you can indeed hear more texture and layering in the bass with an HD800 vs a trusty HD600. From a technical point of view the bass on HD600 is less linear and has higher level of THD. From a subjective perspective after owning both for an extended period of time, I've always heard HD600's bass more wooly/more monotone than HD800's bass. Same would apply to the treble which is more extended on the HD800 and thus you can spot background hiss and very high frequency information much easily.

While it's true that most studios use some of the headphones you've listed, there's also audiophile studios which use other headphones.
This album for instance was mixed using K702 and HD800 (not V6/K240/7506). I've heard of other studios using HD800/HD800SDR and other pricey headphones.
Normally those who make music almost exclusively for the audiophile community.

Anyway (most of the times) it's not about what you're able to hear ("hey, there's a drum back there!") but how can you hear that drum.
It's true that a very cheap (and quite good) Takstar HI-2050 will spot that drum, but a K702 will give it better timing and separation.

I hear what you're saying, but if it comes down to "how you hear that drum", then it's coming down to preferences. What you call "better timing and separation" could be someone else's "overly present and awkwardly misplaced." There isn't any way to objectively qualify that one mixture of sounds is "better" than the other.

There's nothing wrong with having preferences; the arguments come about when we try to say one set of preferences is not just better for ourselves, but better for others, in what's ultimately a completely subjective hobby. That's often when the argument shifts back to details, which, again, just isn't a valid one based on what's actually being used to monitor, mix, and master music, or on the fact that there are many people out there who can hear the same things in 2-figure headphones others hear in 4-figure headphones.

Believe me, I don't mind if anyone feels the HDwhatever is the best thing since sliced bread. I've owned, listened to, enjoyed, and sold several. But it's just not an argument anyone can objectively make; it's a subjective and preferential one. Which is fine, as long as those two arguments aren't confused. You (general you) think the Utopia is the best headphone in history? Go for it! You think nothing can top the HD800 / 650 / 600 / etc? Feel free! Just remember that what's the best headphone for you isn't necessarily going to be what's best for anyone else. And that there's nothing you can hear in one headphone that someone else, somewhere, can't hear in another, and prefer in that headphone as much as you prefer it in yours.