What is "detail"?
Apr 14, 2019 at 4:55 PM Post #46 of 142
That last part right there was the whole point of the posts lol. You have to keep in mind, theory and reality are different.

Obviously digital storage encodes the data in binary format exact representation, and things like dithering and whatnot can reconvert the signal to a perfect sine wave without noise...in theory. But if you have ever worked with any circuitry (or machine) in real life, you'd understand that there is always some....funny business that limits you from achieving absolute mathematical precision.

The important takeaway that you need to keep in mind is that, unlike mathematical models, real machines do not exhibit infinite precision. For our discussion, this is where our perception of detail comes in: how close are those compressions and rarefactions at the transducer output to an ideal sine wave.

Try to see past the mathematics and theory, and try to understand the real world phenomena that we cannot necessarily measure directly, and thus need to predict with statistical models (like surface roughness, machining tolerances, etc). Read up on some datasheets of real (not ideal) components, like transistors and ball bearings. Then, you will understand that omnipresent separation between theory and reality. Then, try to apply that to the conversation to see the asymptotic approach towards mathematical precision.

Basically, the takeaway concept is this: you cannot manufacture a 2x2x2 cube. See if you can apply this concept to our discussion, and all will be made clear.

Do you often find that your bank adds or subtracts from your account incorrectly?

"Real Machines" are typically far more accurate than their application demands. To suggest otherwise is to infer that the entire digital world we live in is nothing but a fantasy. Do you believe that we are in the equivalent of "The Matrix"?
 
Apr 14, 2019 at 5:57 PM Post #47 of 142
I think a lot of the misconceptions about how digital works are holdovers from analog days. Back then, there were veils, different kinds of coloration, subtle and not so subtle differences between players, and generation loss. Digital is entirely different, but people cling to the subjective impressions that don't apply any more. And they want to believe that there's always a way to make it better, even thought it's pretty much an all or nothing thing.
 
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Apr 14, 2019 at 6:35 PM Post #48 of 142
guys, I believe you're misinterpreting @WhatToChoose's posts. he has acknowledged the initial mistake about staircases and from what I understand is only discussing the imperfections inherent to components and actions in the analog domain.
 
Apr 14, 2019 at 7:12 PM Post #49 of 142
Perhaps my posts introduced too much confusion with theory vs reality talk haha. @castleofargh (I thought I remember this name with a one punch man avatar??) seems to get it, but everyone else not so much.

It is okay though, the concept of infinity can be difficult to grasp, so I will leave the conversation as is. If you guys are curious about the differences between theory/simulations and reality, and you end up doing some research, you are bound to find information that confirms the existence of that invisible barrier between mathematically ideal things that you can design on a piece of paper (for example, sphere radius 2cm) and what we can build in real life.

All the best
 
Apr 14, 2019 at 8:22 PM Post #50 of 142
off topic:
@castleofargh (I thought I remember this name with a one punch man avatar??)
yup, that's me. I got told one time too many that people wouldn't take me seriously if I kept using an anime avatar(immaturity, blablablalah). so, very concerned about my image on the web, I rose to the occasion. now I have an avatar taken from Mel Brooks to go with my nickname from Monty Python. pro²
 
Apr 22, 2019 at 8:32 AM Post #52 of 142
[1] If you guys are curious about the differences between theory/simulations and reality, and you end up doing some research, you are bound to find information that confirms the existence of that invisible barrier between mathematically ideal things that you can design on a piece of paper (for example, sphere radius 2cm) and what we can build in real life.
[2] The important takeaway that you need to keep in mind is that, unlike mathematical models, real machines do not exhibit infinite precision.
[2a] For our discussion, this is where our perception of detail comes in: how close are those compressions and rarefactions at the transducer output to an ideal sine wave.
[3] I guess I would need to do more research on the sources of error in the sine wave. The only thing I know for a fact is that the sine waves that are output from the audio chain are not ideal (since no machine can be made to perfect mathematical precision), and I would be interested in learning what that could be....

1. Yes, we are curious about the differences between theory and reality (the practical implementation of the theory) and we have done some research on the matter. For example, the Nyquist/Shannon Sampling Theorem states that any given sine wave (or combination of sine waves) can be reproduced perfectly providing the sample rate is more than double the highest audio frequency we want to reproduce. However it's impractical to perfectly implement the theory in reality, although we can get very close. On the analogue side, it's also possible to get extremely close to the "theory" in practice, although the big difference (compared to digital theory) is that analogue theory does not indicate/predict perfect reproduction to start with, providing you take into account all the pertinent theory/theories of course, such as Johnson/Nyquist Noise for example.

2. This statement is certainly true on the analogue side of audio but is not really true on the digital side, as the problem of infinite precision is bypassed in the digital/binary realm (as it is with the telegraph system). However, what we digitise is an analogue signal and what the digital audio process reproduces is an analogue signal and therefore the ultimate limits of a digital audio system are determined by the theories/practicalities of analogue signals. Of course though, we cannot hear/perceive an analogue signal, it has to be further converted into an acoustic signal and this is where the theory/theories predict the greatest signal loss/distortion. In a competently designed audio system, it's therefore the transducers which determine the ultimate limits of precision/accuracy.

2a. This statement represents the hole in your reasoning. This would be "where our perception of detail comes in" IF our hearing/perception had infinite precision but of course it doesn't. The issue/question is therefore: Is the precision of the system less than or greater than the precision of our hearing/perception? Splitting an audio system into it's constituent parts, the answer to this question is that the precision of the digital domain and conversion to analogue is many times greater than the precision of our hearing (in some respects 1,000 times more precise) and even after amplification, it would typically be at least 10 times greater, even with modestly priced equipment. However, this is not the case with transducers and many transducers aren't designed for ultimate precision in the first place, they're often/typically designed to produce a subjectively pleasing output rather than an accurate output.

3. Taking the above into account, "researching the sources of error in the sine wave" isn't really going to help because "infinite precision" is irrelevant. The obvious areas to research are not in the digital realm but the transducers and perception itself.

A digital file does not have to be bit perfect to prevent a computer from crashing. There are data correction schemes for not having any perceptible difference in audio/video quality, or a player can continue to read data. Another example is a corrupted image file: a computer won't suddenly crash if you open it. You'll just see portions of it look garbled.

In the digital domain we don't just have a digital data file though, we also have digital code containing algorithms/instructions, more than a billion transistors to execute those instructions and we've got to move all those bits of data (both the data bits and the bits representing the instructions) to/from various different locations and keep track of them all with other bits of information. It's only the initial reading of the data file itself from long term storage to RAM that has a data correction scheme but of course, data correction is a process (series of "instructions") that requires the movement and processing of bits of data which if not perfect would cause a crash by the error correction code itself. An "instruction" is a cycle that requires the fetching of the instruction from memory, decoding the instruction, reading the address from memory (of the data) and then executing the instruction. So, while a corrupted image file itself probably wouldn't cause a crash (only a corrupted/garbled image) any single bit error anywhere in any of the instruction cycles which are carried out on each of those image file bits probably would and reportedly, the latest generation iPhone is capable of 600 billion instruction cycles per second!

G
 
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Apr 22, 2019 at 9:44 AM Post #53 of 142
In the digital domain we don't just have a digital data file though, we also have digital code containing algorithms/instructions, more than a billion transistors to execute those instructions and we've got to move all those bits of data (both the data bits and the bits representing the instructions) to/from various different locations and keep track of them all with other bits of information. It's only the initial reading of the data file itself from long term storage to RAM that has a data correction scheme but of course, data correction is a process (series of "instructions") that requires the movement and processing of bits of data which if not perfect would cause a crash by the error correction code itself. An "instruction" is a cycle that requires the fetching of the instruction from memory, decoding the instruction, reading the address from memory (of the data) and then executing the instruction. So, while a corrupted image file itself probably wouldn't cause a crash (only a corrupted/garbled image) any single bit error anywhere in any of the instruction cycles which are carried out on each of those image file bits probably would and reportedly, the latest generation iPhone is capable of 600 billion instruction cycles per second!

G

Sorry, but I actually have experience with software development. Even computer systems in the 60s had operating systems that prevented them from completely crashing if one program ran into a bug. It was especially important with the digital flight computers in the Apollo program. There even was an incident during Apollo 11's descent in which a radar system took unexpected processor cycles and created warnings: the computer was designed to still be able to work since it was imperative the computer always work for the spacecraft to operate. When engineers realized what the problem was, they were able to update the peripheral bug for future missions. When computers had more memory limits, programming in assembly language was also more common place (actually programming instruction cycles for a particular processor). Now with different platforms, apps are written in a compiled language such as C# or Java: if there's an instruction that's not correct, it may be ignored or you may get an error message: not a computer crash. You also were referencing actual data (be it telegraph or sound file) and not program bugs: a scenario in which a corruption might have a perceptual distortion or be unreadable, but would certainly not cause a system crash. There's also more error correction schemes other than "long term storage to RAM" (there's even RAM with error correction).
 
Apr 23, 2019 at 3:53 AM Post #54 of 142
Now with different platforms, apps are written in a compiled language such as C# or Java: if there's an instruction that's not correct, it may be ignored or you may get an error message: not a computer crash. You also were referencing actual data (be it telegraph or sound file) and not program bugs: a scenario in which a corruption might have a perceptual distortion or be unreadable, but would certainly not cause a system crash.

Yes, you are right. I am aware that compiled languages have a significant amount of error/bug handling, both at the compiler level to identify incorrect instructions and at the programming level to throw and then handle exceptions due, for example, to unexpected user input but as you say, I was not really referring to software bugs/issues. I may have explained it poorly (and might still be doing so), but under the assumption that the instructions and data are correct (either due to them actually being correct or being error corrected) we still have to physically move electrons to different locations and actually process all of that data and instructions, essentially by means of an extremely complex arrangement of more than a billion physical transistors. Except under extreme conditions, say absolute zero for example, we cannot have an electrical current without noise being added (Johnson/Nyquist Noise) and some loss of electrons. In that sense, WhatToChoose was correct, no machine/transistor/electrical circuit can ever be perfect but of course that's the whole point of digital/binary. With binary we only have two possibles states, which in the physical world of computing, transistors and electrons/electricity, are represented by on and off and it's this physical representation of bits to which I was referring.

Many/Most audiophiles do not seem able to visualise/understand the fundament facts of a digital/binary system and instead imagine at least a 4 or more state system, for example; a good quality "on" state, a poor quality "on" state, a good quality "off" state and a poor quality "off" state or, maybe some infinite range of quality for the on/off states. In effect, they are erroneously applying analogue signal thinking to digital/binary where we only have two states, there is no good or bad on or off, only on or off. A digital/binary system therefore effectively eliminates any notion of quality and furthermore, many/most audiophiles don't appreciate the complex math that can be achieved with binary (Shannon's fundamental digital information theory for example). In practice then, WhatToChoose was therefore incorrect, transistors do in effect operate perfectly/ideally and can provide infinite mathematical precision because perfect/ideal operation is only on or off, a poor quality "on" does not exist in a binary system and therefore the imperfections of every transistor/circuit do not affect the mathematical precision of the system. If this were not the case, digital devices/computers would be in a permanent crash condition considering they each utilise a billion or more transistors, every single one of which introduces some amount of loss/distortion to the electrical signal.

G
 
Apr 23, 2019 at 12:44 PM Post #55 of 142
Many/Most audiophiles do not seem able to visualise/understand the fundament facts of a digital/binary system and instead imagine at least a 4 or more state system, for example; a good quality "on" state, a poor quality "on" state, a good quality "off" state and a poor quality "off" state or, maybe some infinite range of quality for the on/off states. In effect, they are erroneously applying analogue signal thinking to digital/binary where we only have two states, there is no good or bad on or off, only on or off. A digital/binary system therefore effectively eliminates any notion of quality and furthermore, many/most audiophiles don't appreciate the complex math that can be achieved with binary (Shannon's fundamental digital information theory for example). In practice then, WhatToChoose was therefore incorrect, transistors do in effect operate perfectly/ideally and can provide infinite mathematical precision because perfect/ideal operation is only on or off, a poor quality "on" does not exist in a binary system and therefore the imperfections of every transistor/circuit do not affect the mathematical precision of the system. If this were not the case, digital devices/computers would be in a permanent crash condition considering they each utilise a billion or more transistors, every single one of which introduces some amount of loss/distortion to the electrical signal.

G

Now you are just making up new ways to insult audiophiles that did not exist.
 
Apr 24, 2019 at 5:41 AM Post #56 of 142
Now you are just making up new ways to insult audiophiles that did not exist.

I'm not making up anything, the various sub-forums here on head-fi are full of statements (and products) which claim that "detail" and/or other aspects of audio fidelity are audibly improved by improving the "quality" of the bits (on/off states). Furthermore, my post was not intended as an insult. Appreciating the ramifications and consequences of digital/binary is not particularly intuitive and is even less intuitive if one is coming from an analogue signal mode of thinking. It is therefore entirely understandable that many/most audiophiles have a poor understanding of digital/binary and if what I stated was an insult, then I was insulting myself as much as other audiophiles because at one time I had exactly the same misconceptions of how digital audio works. It took me a while until "the penny finally dropped" and up until that point I could only think of digital/binary in terms of analogue thinking because that was the only mode of thinking I had! And AFAIK, without exception, the same is true of everyone with whom I've discussed it.

G
 
Apr 24, 2019 at 1:10 PM Post #57 of 142
I'm just happy digital works. I remember the analog era where everything was a compromise of some sort. I'm not going to go searching up unverified and untested excuses to try to convince myself that digital is like that too.
 
Apr 24, 2019 at 1:52 PM Post #58 of 142
My car needs detailing
 
Apr 24, 2019 at 3:13 PM Post #59 of 142
Try getting silver jumper cables
 

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