[guitarrules]

I completely agree. The SR-009 is in a different league than the HD800. I am waiting for Sennheiser to release an electrostatic for the rest of us.

 

[mulveling]

Should've titled this thread: "whose hearing is broken".

 

[icebear]

I do prefer the HD800, because in my set up it does not have any negatives (e.g. piercing treble, missing bass). It sound natural with a spectacular level of detail for my preferred style of music. But the crucial aspect that the HD800 get right is an "out of head" localization effect of the sound stage. Any other headphone I tried gave me an in the middle between my ears effect which drives me nuts.
I listened to a SR-009 / BHSE set up briefly at a NY meet in 2014(?) and yes the out of nowhere, completely effortless, airy presentation is breathtaking and it is a league above the HD800 but with an inside my head localization. If Sennheiser could combine the sound stage presentation of the ring radiator of the HD800 with the pace of an electrostat, or Stax improve the localization of their TOTL phone, this would be heaven in a headphone. Most likely it will cost an arm and leg and a kidney.
Since I have no body parts to spare, I am very much content with the HD800.
 
And for all the folks complaining about piercing treble - maybe they are just listening way too loud?

 

[Barra]

  I do prefer the HD800, because in my set up it does not have any negatives (e.g. piercing treble, missing bass). It sound natural with a spectacular level of detail for my preferred style of music. But the crucial aspect that the HD800 get right is an "out of head" localization effect of the sound stage. Any other headphone I tried gave me an in the middle between my ears effect which drives me nuts.
I listened to a SR-009 / BHSE set up briefly at a NY meet in 2014(?) and yes the out of nowhere, completely effortless, airy presentation is breathtaking and it is a league above the HD800 but with an inside my head localization. If Sennheiser could combine the sound stage presentation of the ring radiator of the HD800 with the pace of an electrostat, or Stax improve the localization of their TOTL phone, this would be heaven in a headphone. Most likely it will cost an arm and leg and a kidney.
Since I have no body parts to spare, I am very much content with the HD800.
 
And for all the folks complaining about piercing treble - maybe they are just listening way too loud?

Everyone hears things different, but for me - I have to be able to turn up a HP to a volume that sizes the music correct to get that being there feel of full sized band members and instruments. And no, I do not like to listen to overly loud music. I find that when I am able to turn up the volume without damaging the SQ, the added dynamics feels natural and the sound gets full. Top tier SQ for me is when I can turn up the volume without the HP or equipment sounding loud/distorted/piercing, but just increasing richness and adding fullness while dialing in staging/dynamics.
 
This is where the HD800 fails for me in its stock state. The treble becomes piercing quickly before I get the volume up to the right level because it is not a correctly balanced HP. It is called neutral or analytical because the lower registers have taken a back seat - not because the frequency is evenly distributed per the recording. The intense detail comes mainly from the brightness in the stock tuning. This becomes readily apparent when corrected with the SonarWorks plugin that removes the forward treble shelf and balances the frequency response to neutral. Toggling it on and off allows you to see exactly what the plugin is doing to the SQ. Now, when turned up to get the correct dynamics, it no longer hurts the ears allowing it to have exotic level SQ. The HD800 is good enough to have the same detail retrieval without the forward treble going to a new level with the added dynamics the new balanced signature allows. Yes, you have to turn up the volume louder than stock, but the new signature and added dynamics take the HD800 to Abyss levels.
 
As to the theme of the thread, yes I do feel the 009 is an 11 to the tweaked HD800's 10 listening to classical, but I would never use the 009 as I rarely listen to classical. Go to electronica and the Abyss/tweaked HD800 will likely blow the 009 away IMO - but this is conjecture as I do not own the 009 and the 009 displays only seem to have classical with very little of any other genre.
 
@MacedonianHero, what genre do you listen to with your 009? Would you rather listen to electronica on your 009 or with an Abyss? Have you tried the SonarWorks plugin with your HD800 to hear the difference?  Your 009 opinion is definitely more informed than mine as you actually own one. 

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I do prefer the HD800, because in my set up it does not have any negatives (e.g. piercing treble, missing bass). It sound natural with a spectacular level of detail for my preferred style of music. But the crucial aspect that the HD800 get right is an "out of head" localization effect of the sound stage. Any other headphone I tried gave me an in the middle between my ears effect which drives me nuts.
I listened to a SR-009 / BHSE set up briefly at a NY meet in 2014(?) and yes the out of nowhere, completely effortless, airy presentation is breathtaking and it is a league above the HD800 but with an inside my head localization. If Sennheiser could combine the sound stage presentation of the ring radiator of the HD800 with the pace of an electrostat, or Stax improve the localization of their TOTL phone, this would be heaven in a headphone. Most likely it will cost an arm and leg and a kidney.
Since I have no body parts to spare, I am very much content with the HD800.
 
And for all the folks complaining about piercing treble - maybe they are just listening way too loud?

 
That's one of the most frequent things people prefer with the HD 800: the soundstage. However, in my experience, all headphones have barely any soundstage at all. Even my cheap USB speakers are far more spacious than any headphone. And I've heard the HD 800, HE1000, Abyss, etc. on high-end systems with all types of music. I thought those sounded slightly more spacious than other headphones, but the difference was so small I didn't even think it worth caring about.
 
On that note, here is a post worth reading:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/2280#post_12457951
 
With the help of a virtual surround sound processor like the Smyth Realiser, I'd imagine the differences in soundstage between headphones would become even less important.
 
A more interesting potential benefit I read about the HD 800 is resolution and microdetail. Although more often than not, people think the 009 is better in that category, I do come across a handful of individuals who insist the HD 800 is more resolving, at least in some respects. Still, in my own experience, I did not notice any details with the HD 800 that the STAX SR-207 (which is the best STAX I have heard at this point) did not also reproduce just fine.
 
Regarding the frequency response:
 

Spoiler: measurements

HD 800

 
SR-009

 
SR-207 with EP-507 pads

 
From 700 Hz to 4 kHz, the HD 800 has a significant dip, which creates an imbalance and makes the treble more prominent than it otherwise would be. The peak at 6 kHz isn't really that extreme. So the brightness that some encounter is primarily due to the imbalance created by the sucked-out mids. It's not as noticeable with quality acoustic recordings, but with recordings that are a little bright, it can make it sound far brighter than it is, sometimes to the point of physical pain. This is especially apparent with electronic recordings with things like fast, repetitive cymbals and high frequency instruments.
 
Now compare this to the 009. The mids are not sucked out. Although I have not heard the 009, I owned the 207, which measures mostly the same in the frequency response and doesn't have any noticeable imbalances for me.
 
But again, the HD 800 sounds fine with most music too. I don't think anyone can deny it's one of the most neutral headphones out there, even without altering the sound via mods, tubes, and so on.
 
I think the best comparison between the HD 800 and 009 (or any headphones, really) would be after they have both been equalized to have a frequency response as close to neutral as possible. (I know what constitutes neutrality is debatable. I use the diffuse-field curve represented by the green line as my neutral reference for a number of reasons. The aforementioned headphones are certainly not bass-light in the measurements, because planar magnetic headphones also follow that green line in the bass.) This would make it easier to assess their true capabilities instead of being forced to compare the differences in FR.
 

As to the theme of the thread, yes I do feel the 009 is an 11 to the tweaked HD800's 10 listening to classical, but I would never use the 009 as I rarely listen to classical. Go to electronica and the Abyss/tweaked HD800 will likely blow the 009 away IMO - but this is conjecture as I do not own the 009 and the 009 displays only seem to have classical with very little of any other genre.

 
For what it's worth, the STAX SR-207 is my favorite headphone so far with virtually all types of music. And both it and the 009 are more or less as neutral as it gets, as I touched upon above. The measured distortion and transient response are also top tier.
 
I'm interested in hearing more details about what you think the 009's downsides are with non-classical music in the context of accurate reproduction of the recording. (Without getting into personal preference.)
 
I think (as also mentioned above) that if you are going to equalize one headphone, the others should be equalized as well in order to level the playing field as far as FR goes. Sonarworks is cool software (I was the first to publish a brief tutorial here on using it with foobar2000), but since they use their own proprietary curve, I'd rather do the EQ myself to get the best results.

 

[joseph69]

  Everyone hears things different, but for me - I have to be able to turn up a HP to a volume that sizes the music correct to get that being there feel of full sized band members and instruments. And no, I do not like to listen to overly loud music. I find that when I am able to turn up the volume without damaging the SQ, the added dynamics feels natural and the sound gets full. Top tier SQ for me is when I can turn up the volume without the HP or equipment sounding loud/distorted/piercing, but just increasing richness and adding fullness while dialing in staging/dynamics.

  I agree 100% about the volume of a specific HP…very well said.
 
Quote:

But I just don't understand…you've never actually heard the 009. 

 

[Music Alchemist]

But I just don't understand…you've never actually heard the 009. 

 
What do you not understand? I will be happy to elaborate.

 

[Kyle 491]

  Should've titled this thread: "whose hearing is broken".

Maybe you should actually try listening to real music in a suitable environment, say the Royal Albert Hall in London that I attend several time a year. The HD800 can provide the illusion of a real life performance in such a venue, the SR-009 never. It never sounds like real-life, not from the BHSE or KGSS. It's too small and weak-sounding with its ethereal coloration. Don't get me wrong, the SR-009 has a very  smooth and refined, feminine sound, that certainly suites listeners with delicate sensibilities, or low testosterone, or maybe both

. But for primitive, unrefined types like me, the SR-009 just lacks balls, an overly polished facsimile of real life. 

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Maybe you should actually try listening to real music in a suitable environment, say the Royal Albert Hall in London that I attend several time a year. The HD800 can provide the illusion of a real life performance in such a venue, the SR-009 never. It never sounds like real-life, not from the BHSE or KGSS. It's too small and weak-sounding with its ethereal coloration. Don't get me wrong, the SR-009 has a very  smooth and refined, feminine sound, that certainly suites listeners with delicate sensibilities, or low testosterone, or maybe both

. But for primitive, unrefined types like me, the SR-009 just lacks balls, an overly polished facsimile of real life. 

 
Thanks for your input! These are the types of impressions I'm looking for.
 
As for my own limited thoughts on that, the STAX SR-207 sounds more realistic to me than the HD 800 overall, with all music, though the HD 800 is better in at least some ways. I don't think the 207 sounds small, weak, or ethereal at all. And the 009 is, by nearly all accounts, much better than the 207. But again, my experience is quite limited.
 
It should be noted, however, that I am an experienced musician. (Vocals, piano, guitar, trombone. Orchestras, wind ensembles, marching bands, a jazz band, metal band, etc.)
 
If the HD 800 is more accurate than the 009, that would be great news for me, mainly due to the much higher price of an 009 system.
 
Would you care to expand upon this in other genres? The more info you can provide, the better!
 
(I listen to everything from classical to electronic to metal. Hopefully you have insights pertaining to all that and not just quality acoustic recordings.)

 

[karlgerman]

This is not a acceptable comparison to me. Source, DAC, the differences in Recording quality-- all that will never be the same as the original soundstage.
 
The concert hall of the "mozart kuratorium augsburg" is about 5 minutes away from home, heard the competition winner´s of the violin event.
 
I tried the comparison after i went home with several recordings of the same theme on Loudspeakers and Stax. Bahhh!
 
But the Stax is the closest, almost lifelike experience to my ears, thats why i own it.
 
Never had rhat with the senn, ultrasone audeze 2,3....

 

[joseph69]

  What do you not understand? I will be happy to elaborate.

I just don't understand how you're comparing the 009 to anything if you haven't actually heard them…I'm trying to come off wrong or offend you, but I just don't understand? Anyway, I would think you need to hear for yourself whatever HP your interested in purchasing in the future with your own system and hear what suits you best. Being everyone has different up stream equipment, your going to get different opinions about the same HP's…for sure.

 

[Kyle 491]

  This is not a acceptable comparison to me. Source, DAC, the differences in Recording quality-- all that will never be the same as the original soundstage.
 
The concert hall of the "mozart kuratorium augsburg" is about 5 minutes away from home, heard the competition winner´s of the violin event.
 
I tried the comparison after i went home with several recordings of the same theme on Loudspeakers and Stax. Bahhh!
 
But the Stax is the closest, almost lifelike experience to my ears, thats why i own it.

Sure, if you're talking about small scale pieces, solo violins and the like, I could prefer the SR-009 over the HD800. But for anything large scale, the HD800 is far more convincing; the more instruments playing and sound reflections in the auditorium, the more the HD800 pulls away from the Stax. Lets not get into guff regarding the DAC and source quality, none of these have more of an impact of the sound than a transducer does itself. Listening to the exact same recordings on the HD800 and the SR-009 is enough to get a good idea of your preferences.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I just don't understand how you're comparing the 009 to anything if you haven't actually heard them…I'm trying to come off wrong or offend you, but I just don't understand? Anyway, I would think you need to hear for yourself whatever HP your interested in purchasing in the future with your own system and hear what suits you best. Being everyone has different up stream equipment, your going to get different opinions about the same HP's…for sure.

 
Be sure to click the spoiler with the measurements. I was analyzing the measurements.

 

[joseph69]

  Be sure to click the spoiler with the measurements. I was analyzing the measurements.

I understand you're going off measurements…but theres nothing like hearing the HP's you're interested in purchasing themselves.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I understand you're going off measurements…but theres nothing like hearing the HP's you're interested in purchasing themselves.

 
Yes, of course. But my reason for getting into measurements was to illustrate a few things to others. If you use EQ, those FR measurements become irrelevant, though, so yes, hearing for yourself is what matters. Unfortunately, I have yet to see a single comparison of these two headphones involving both of them being equalized to have the same FR, so any of those comparisons inevitably involve the differences in FR on top of everything else.