[Davesrose]

Going to try to dispell this "veil" term that has been following this site. So after many flames on this site about what logic Sennheiser engineers used when they made the HD580 series, my assertion has always been that they are wieghted to be concert hall headphones for symphonies. That in a concert hall, bass is what travels and that treble tends to be softer. This adds to body and intonation in strings and percussions. Sure enough, slwiser submitted an interesting link today that talks about the accoustics of an auditorium.

http://www.regonaudio.com/Records%20and%20Reality.html

There has been some criticism about why the 580 series has a 10 db dip in the 8khz range....the very reason is concert hall accoustics:

"The graphs show considerable variety from hall to hall in bass and mid-bass response, with the halls that are regarded as desirable for orchestral performances having considerable bass to mid-bass warmth. A less desirable feature of many halls is a slight 250 Hz depression, apparently caused by absorption arising from the seating pattern. In the midrange above 250 Hz up to the 2-4 kHz region, most of the halls are essentially flat. But around 4000 Hz, and sometimes as low as 2000 Hz, virtually every hall begins a rapid roll-off at even quite close-up audience locations. By 8000 Hz, there is typically a 7 to 10 dB dropoff from midrange level. The graphs are not given beyond 8 kHz; but from theoretical considerations, the roll-off at higher frequencies would be expected to be even greater."

Now Sennheiser probably has adjusted and softened the mids in the 650 to give some difference to the 580. To my ears, they actually make greater "symphony" headphones because of their refinement in mids and more extended high treble. So for the anti-veilests predictions about the HD700, I hope you're not right that Sennheiser will "de-veil" the 700

That would mean that the HD650 would be an end of an era for great concert headphones.

 

[cotdt]

oh but i do hope that senn "unveils" the HD700s. i never liked that veil. veil evil. evil veil.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif oh but i do hope that senn "unveils" the HD700s. i never liked that veil. veil evil. evil veil.

not evil for Mozart

 

[robm321]

Still talking about the veil - its still there on the HD650

- You can't post it away ha ha!

The HD650 is a terrific headphone, but there are other terrific phones that have a more crisp lively sound, some would say harsh - choose your poison but neither option is perfect.

Full bodied is a diplomatic way of saying thick which may be to blame for the veil, who knows...

 

[reivaj]

daverose you should work for sennheiser as some sort of talks person where all you do is talk about how lovely sennheiser is

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Still talking about the veil - its still there on the HD650 - You can't post it away ha ha! The HD650 is a terrific headphone, but there are other terrific phones that have a more crisp lively sound, some would say harsh - choose your poison but neither option is perfect.

I just thought it good fodder for the analysts on here who keep looking at FRGs saying that 10 db dip is bad

More creedence why a headphone shouldn't be dead flat. Obviously the 650 isn't good for everything, but it sure is good for symphonies: Just finished listening to Mozart's 25th symphony. Eargasms galore

BTW, I'm going to try exchanging the phono pre-amp for my TT. Have been trying it out ala hiss. Will burn in of the stylus help with extension? Right now the music is kind of compressed sounding. Thinking it could be something wrong with the stylus as well.....didn't come with a guard

 

[mirumu]

I'm not sure "full bodied" and "veiled" are interchangable terms. I consider my Omega 2s to be more full bodied than my HD595s yet there is nothing I consider a veil in the O2s. That said, I do appreciate where you're coming from with the talk of concert hall accoustics. I've never been a fan of frequency response graphs, etc, I think there are more variables that affect the sound than we are always aware of but it does seem to me that what you are proposing sounds quite reasonable if Sennheiser were aiming to replicate the concert hall experience.

 

[cotdt]

Mozart sounds good on ANY headphone with the possible exception of the Grado SR/RS line. So what was your point again???? :AKG701smile:

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure "full bodied" and "veiled" are interchangable terms. I consider my Omega 2s to be more full bodied than my HD595s yet there is nothing I consider a veil in the O2s. That said, I do appreciate where you're coming from with the talk of concert hall accoustics. I've never been a fan of frequency response graphs, etc, I think there are more variables that affect the sound than we are always aware of but it does seem to me that what you are proposing sounds quite reasonable if Sennheiser were aiming to replicate the concert hall experience.

This whole notion of negative terms is what I'm trying to dispell: it only turns people off to a particular headphone because it's negative. We resort to saying a headphone is veiled or harsh, only because it's a presentation we ourselves can't appreciate. I know I come to grips with this when I listen to an AKG: it's too airy for me (think it is because of me coming from violin and guitar and want more weight). Haven't heard an Orpheus or O2 to see if a good electrostat can have the same warmth as the HD650. But since Sennheiser did design the 580 as a classical headphone, this seems like a very good reason for the "veil". Not as up front as many other headphones, but "lively" for symphonies. I think this treatment is also what gives us perception of speed: if something is more transparent and less warm, it seems to have a "faster" driver (even though IMHO, most dynamic drivers have similar response times).

Anywho, these are my theories for our perceptions of a headphone's presentation.

 

[reivaj]

Your perception on the term isnt going to revolutionize and dispell the conventional thinking of the sennheiser "veil" since its mostly an opinionated statement and you cannot dispell ones opinion.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif So for the anti-veilests predictions about the HD700, I hope you're not right that Sennheiser will "de-veil" the 700 That would mean that the HD650 would be an end of an era for great concert headphones.

So, in other words, you like veiled concerts? The phone is reproducing recordings, not concerts nor concert halls, which no two are the same anyway.

 

[cotdt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, in other words, you like veiled concerts? The phone is reproducing recordings, not concerts nor concert halls, which no two are the same anyway.

he likes mozart with a veil. mozart would not be pleased! :K701smile:

 

[SptsNaz]

Good post Davesrose, although you do have to realize that as much as you love your Senn's not everyone will, and some will even hate them. Veil or no, who really cares, don't pay attention to the posts that tell you what you should and shouldn't be hearing. Otherwise you'll never be happy. I don't think Senn's are veiled either, but if some people think they are then maybe they are - to their ears that is. I know these kind of discussions are pretty much the core of head-fi but you can't really take them too seriously or you'll go nuts.

 

[J-Pak]

It's a very good read (I enjoyed it), but I have been to a few orchestras and I didn't hear the darkness/upper midrange suckout that the HD650 exhibited. Then again I have never heard a pair of speakers or headphones that can recreate a live orchestra. And I certainly don't think the HD650 is anywhere near it in its attempt to.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, in other words, you like veiled concerts? The phone is reproducing recordings, not concerts nor concert halls, which no two are the same anyway.

No, I like interpretations that are concert like. Recordings are more neutral because of the placement of mics: that's why every headphone maker has different presentations in their headphones. Why there's no flat FRG.

RE SptsNaz and reivaj, yep, looks like "veil" and "harsh" are still going to permeate through this little forum