[PLazarou]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I have limited experience with high-quality audio and have some pretty basic questions about DACs and amps. I've used Alessandro MS-1 headphones for many years (which I believe start life as the Grado SR80) in combination with an "X-Fi HD" external USB sound card, which seems to be more commonly known as the "Digital Music Premium HD" now...
 
I'm going to buy some Sennheiser HD600 or 650s soon, and I'm interested to see how this X-Fi HD fares (although I have no higher frame of reference so it'll probably just sound great to me). But I imagine that it would not be considered 'up to the task' of powering such headphones by the discerning Head-Fi community. For those unfamiliar with this model, please look at this link: http://uk.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-digital-music-premium-hd
 
Going by the specs, it claims to be capable of powering headphones 'up to 330 Ohms', but being a USB-only device (no separate power adapter), this can't possibly have the 'oomph' of a dedicated headphone amp?
 
As I understand it, this external soundcard is essentially a DAC and amp with a bunch of extra Creative goodies thrown in, and at under £100 it surely can't compare to the popular dedicated DACs and amps that offer 'great value', such as the Schiit stack or O2+ODAC that I see recommended here regularly.
 
And yet, a bit more research tells me that the DAC chip in the X-Fi HD is the AKM4396, which is exactly the same as the one in the Schiit Modi 2. So what's the deal here? Is the X-Fi HD actually just as good a DAC as the Schiit Modi 2, or is there more to it?
 
I'm quite prepared to invest in a dedicated DAC like the Modi 2, but if it's actually not that much different, perhaps I should just look at running a dedicated amp off the X-Fi HD?

 

[PLazarou]

Hope it's ok to give this a bump as it was dropping into oblivion with no views... any thoughts appreciated

 

[PLazarou]

Another bump, with some more info... I just discovered this detailed review of the X-Fi HD: http://marlene-d.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/creative-labs-soundblaster-x-fi-hd-usb.html
 
The conclusion is that the headphone output sucks (sounds fine to me, but don't have the Sennheisers yet) but the line-out is decent. This seems to suggest that the X-Fi HD would serve as a good standalone DAC in combination with a better headphone amp.
 
Also discussed is the lack of the required crystal to play 44.1kHz. Having always used Foobar's DirectSound setting I had no idea this was even a problem, but apparently this is resampling everything before it reaches my ears? Using ASIO gives me the "Unrecoverable playback error: Sample rate of 44100 Hz not supported by this device" message. I find it baffling that any digital sound device would lack this crystal, when surely the average user's music collection is primarily 44.1kHz?
 
Anyway... this is a rather one-sided conversation... anyone welcome to join...

 

[PLazarou]

Bumping with an update... eventually somebody might reply... *sniff*
 
I'm now the proud owner of some Sennheiser HD650 headphones and a Meier Audio Corda Jazz amplifier. As I mentioned, I'm using an X-Fi HD as a DAC.
 
Naturally I tried the HD650s on the X-Fi headphone output first, as this is the way I've used my MS-1 headphones for years. As expected, the Sennheisers require a bit more oomph to achieve the same volume, for instance if 11% was a comfortable listening volume for a certain track on the MS-1, achieving the same volume for the HD650 would require about 22%. The headphones are a big improvement on their own, and it feels like I can listen to things louder with more comfort. To my untrained ear, it seems like the X-Fi alone was doing a fine job.
 
Then I tried the Corda Jazz, connected to the X-Fi's line out. Well... I can't say I was immediately blown away. It's certainly a nice thing to have sitting on the desk, and the volume knob is more pleasant to use than the one on the X-Fi (in fact I rarely used that, as it just controlled the Windows slider). And I absolutely love the crossfeed feature - that works exactly as described and makes certain tracks so much easier to listen to. But in terms of sound quality I'm not sure... I mean it sounds great to me, but then the 650s sounded great on the X-Fi too. I get a sense there is a lot of placebo happening because I can't do a blind test. It certainly feels like the Corda can push the headphones with more ease, creating a fuller sound at the same volume. But whenever I think 'oh that bit sounded fantastic', I plug them directly into the X-Fi again, play back the same passage of music and wonder whether I'd really be able to pick them apart in a blind test.
 
I have been able to do a different kind of blind test however, and that is between different digital music quality. Before I bought this new gear, I had tried this on my MS-1 and X-Fi - playing a FLAC version of a track, followed by a 128kbps MP3 version. By keeping Foobar minimised and skipping between the two, I was able to ensure it was a proper blind test. And honestly, they sounded the same, and if I ever guessed right it was sheer luck. Same goes for the lossless test on the Tidal website - both samples sound the same, and I'm just guessing each time. So I was keen to try these tests again on using the HD650s and the Corda amp. Again, it was extremely difficult. Each time I thought maybe I had picked up something, I got it wrong the next time.
 
So I'm a bit confused. Everything sounds better with the new headphones, that I can say for sure. The amp is probably improving the sound further but I'm not sure if it's mostly placebo. The crossfeed feature definitely works and I love it (and I've seen comments that it is quite subtle and hard to hear so that gives me a bit of confidence that my ears aren't broken). And yet, I can't tell the difference between a 128kbps MP3 and a FLAC, at least not consistently. So I guess there are few possible explanations... 1) my ears aren't capable of hearing details properly, 2) the difference between digital music quality is massively overrated, 3) my X-Fi makes everything sound amazing, 4) my X-Fi makes everything sound terrible.
 
If the correct explanation is number 4, then my hope is that buying a standalone DAC is the missing piece to this puzzle. Could it be that the X-Fi HD is simply not outputting lossless audio at the quality it is really capable of? As mentioned in an earlier post, the X-Fi HD apparently resamples any 44.1kHz audio and that could be affecting sound quality. Could it really be affecting it that much to make a FLAC and 128kbps MP3 sound the same?

 

[Katji]

Also discussed is the lack of the required crystal to play 44.1kHz. Having always used Foobar's DirectSound setting I had no idea this was even a problem, but apparently this is resampling everything before it reaches my ears? Using ASIO gives me the "Unrecoverable playback error: Sample rate of 44100 Hz not supported by this device" message. I find it baffling that any digital sound device would lack this crystal, when surely the average user's music collection is primarily 44.1kHz?

 
i think you have not configured it right. "Off the top of my head", you have to select the right option in a drop-down list. google foobar asio flac, you'll get it easily. (i'd know this stuff better if i'd actually done it - maybe - but i'm still collecting components. And collecting information - saving web pages and pictures. As usual :-/ )

 

[PLazarou]

   
i think you have not configured it right. "Off the top of my head", you have to select the right option in a drop-down list. google foobar asio flac, you'll get it easily. (i'd know this stuff better if i'd actually done it - maybe - but i'm still collecting components. And collecting information - saving web pages and pictures. As usual :-/ )

I have Foobar's ASIO component installed. Under Preferences, Output, Device, there is drop-down menu that is normally selected as "DS: Speaker (USB Sounder Blaster HD)". I can select the option "ASIO: Creative Sound Blaster ASIO" instead, which plays 48kHz and 96kHz tracks fine, but any 44.1kHz track gives the error message. The only way to play the 44.1kHz tracks is to use the "DS" setting, which is apparently resampling.

 

[Katji]

Same here. i have a lot of 320 kbps mp3's, many 128 kbps, and i ripped some CD's to .wav and .flac, and i cannot say for sure that i find the .flac to be better.  Based on what i've read, what i've learned, the differences [generally] are only apparent with "high-end", expensive hi-fi that is more "revealing".
Aside from that, what you say fits with what i've read about [lossy] compression - mp3's, and even more so with 44,100 vs. 48,000 Hz. Although so many audiophiles say they can tell the difference.
That 384 and 48,000 thing is one reason why i got the SMSL M8 - thinking that even if i didn't need it now, i might in future, that it would be less likely to become an outdated component that needed to be replaced.

wrt Schiitt vs. SMSL M8 (and disregarding the name Schiitt) :-/ ...i think that early in the thread, someone who had had one of the Schiitt DACs found that he definitely preferred the M8. Maybe it was 2 people. Maybe personal preference? But better than my no experience.  And my criteria were that it must not be USB-powered and it must have the 384 / 48,000 Hz capability. Most everything else that meets those criteria cost about 80% more at least. And the Sabre DAC chip (or clone thereof) rather than the Burr-Brown /whatever.

Whatever...once i get it all up and running, it's sure to be a big improvement on my laptop's ASUS built-in "soundcard" and the JBL Bluetooth speaker. Then i'll stop spending so much time on audiophile forums. Although i suppose i'll continue with trying to learn about speakers, DIY speakers.

 

[Katji]

I have Foobar's ASIO component installed. Under Preferences, Output, Device, there is drop-down menu that is normally selected as "DS: Speaker (USB Sounder Blaster HD)". I can select the option "ASIO: Creative Sound Blaster ASIO" instead, which plays 48kHz and 96kHz tracks fine, but any 44.1kHz track gives the error message. The only way to play the 44.1kHz tracks is to use the "DS" setting, which is apparently resampling.

 
That's confusing to me, but the error msg you get appears all over the place, i've seen it so many times. (At least the "not supported" part does.)

PS:  i'll go through it at some point but, given that all my music is 320 kbps mp3, 95% of it downloaded, no CD player and i'm not much interested in any of the hundreds of CDs i have from 10 years ago.....although i still have to bypass the Windows stuff to get plain, un-DSP'd data out the USB port...which means Windows volume control becomes unusable, unfortunately.

 

[PLazarou]

  Same here. i have a lot of 320 kbps mp3's, many 128 kbps, and i ripped some CD's to .wav and .flac, and i cannot say for sure that i find the .flac to be better.  Based on what i've read, what i've learned, the differences [generally] are only apparent with "high-end", expensive hi-fi that is more "revealing".
Aside from that, what you say fits with what i've read about [lossy] compression - mp3's, and even more so with 44,100 vs. 48,000 Hz. Although so many audiophiles say they can tell the difference.
That 384 and 48,000 thing is one reason why i got the SMSL M8 - thinking that even if i didn't need it now, i might in future, that it would be less likely to become an outdated component that needed to be replaced.

wrt Schiitt vs. SMSL M8 (and disregarding the name Schiitt) :-/ ...i think that early in the thread, someone who had had one of the Schiitt DACs found that he definitely preferred the M8. Maybe it was 2 people. Maybe personal preference? But better than my no experience.  And my criteria were that it must not be USB-powered and it must have the 384 / 48,000 Hz capability. Most everything else that meets those criteria cost about 80% more at least. And the Sabre DAC chip (or clone thereof) rather than the Burr-Brown /whatever.

Whatever...once i get it all up and running, it's sure to be a big improvement on my laptop's ASUS built-in "soundcard" and the JBL Bluetooth speaker. Then i'll stop spending so much time on audiophile forums. Although i suppose i'll continue with trying to learn about speakers, DIY speakers.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one When I really struggle to hear the difference between what is supposed to be a dramatically better file with so much more data, I become pretty sceptical about all of these very precise differences that many people describe on this forum, even between sets of cables.
 
I could just dismiss it all, stop reading and enjoy what I have, but I know this will play on my mind until I hear a different DAC or two. But then there are very conflicting messages about DACs. The M8 seems great on paper, but then lots of people say the chips and the numbers mean nothing. Then there are things like the Chord Mojo that is USB, three times the price and supposedly sounds like a really high-end DAC... how can a portable DAC sound so incredible all by itself when a desktop one like the M8 is supposedly so dramatically effected by power supplies? It just doesn't make sense to me.
 

   
That's confusing to me, but the error msg you get appears all over the place, i've seen it so many times. (At least the "not supported" part does.)

PS:  i'll go through it at some point but, given that all my music is 320 kbps mp3, 95% of it downloaded, no CD player and i'm not much interested in any of the hundreds of CDs i have from 10 years ago.....although i still have to bypass the Windows stuff to get plain, un-DSP'd data out the USB port...which means Windows volume control becomes unusable, unfortunately.

I've never seen this error before as I was blissfully unaware of this ASIO mode so I've always used DS. The X-Fi basically forces me to continue to use DS because it supposedly can't play 44.1 directly, and I'm hoping that is at least partly the reason why I struggle to hear differences in sound quality of files.