[pevsfreedom]

This is confusing in my head so I'll try to ask the question.. to the best of my ability.

I've read the headphone jack on the S501 is kind of bad and has 470ohm resistance, which isn't great for 300 ohm HD600s I use.

I wouldn't mind buying a headphone amp, closer to 0 ohm, something decent to listen with.

My problem though, is that I use the amp for multiple sources, obviously. With a single source I don't think this would be an issue ("Connect the amp to a recording output).

1) I don't think I can just plug a headphone amp into the headphone jack on the S501 without bad results. I have tried this, and didn't notice a difference (Schitt Magni).

2) I run my laptop>DAC>line 1 on the amp. The turntable (will soon) go thru pre-amp > line 2. Is there a way that I could set-up a headphone amp that would work with both or any input sources? It has PB/R input/outputs on lines 2 and 3...
I can't think of how I would do this without either plugging an amp directly into the headphone jack (would that work? it would be easiest..) or having a headphone amp that I guess has two different input sources..

And I assume besides all this, if the headphone amp is used, the speakers would play no matter what. I wouldn't want the PB functioning overriding the speakers or something? My ignorance is showing.

Do I have any options here?

 

[Alcophone]

My problem though, is that I use the amp for multiple sources, obviously. With a single source I don't think this would be an issue ("Connect the amp to a recording output).

In other words you want to use the Yamaha as an input selector, which makes sense since you already have it.

You could also consider getting a separate preamp just as an input selector (not for volume control, though that's an option as well) that has two outputs, and feed both the Yamaha as a speaker amp and a separate headphone amp this way. If you don't want to use the Yamaha's built-in phono preamp, that is. Of course that's a pricier option.

1) I don't think I can just plug a headphone amp into the headphone jack on the S501 without bad results. I have tried this, and didn't notice a difference (Schitt Magni).

I mean... it might work, but it's a bad idea, generally speaking.

2) I run my laptop>DAC>line 1 on the amp. The turntable (will soon) go thru pre-amp > line 2. Is there a way that I could set-up a headphone amp that would work with both or any input sources? It has PB/R input/outputs on lines 2 and 3...

Except for the phono input you can use any of its inputs (CD, tuner, ...) for any line level device. I'd use the line 3 rec output to feed a headphone amp. That output will be muted when you select line 3 as an input, but should get a line level signal when any other input is selected. You can also use the line 2 output, and that's muted when the line 2 input is selected - your choice.

And I assume besides all this, if the headphone amp is used, the speakers would play no matter what.

I thought you could just use the mute button on the remote, but it's implemented in a dumb way: "Reduces the current volume level by approximately 20 dB" Might work well enough for you, if not the "Speakers: off" selector on the front panel should turn the speakers off entirely.

 

[pevsfreedom]

So a phono preamp with two outputs? Would DAC feed into the phono pre-amp? Curious how that would work (phono signal throw things off?) I was getting a ART DJPREII Phono Preamplifier, but obviously wouldn't be suited for that. Hard for me to picture how that would all work.

Yeah you can just select speakers off, in my mind though if there was something plugged into R and PB it would feed the signal to the PB and.. not? come out the speakers? Or it still would? This is my first integrated amp.

In your example of setting it to line 2 or 3.. I am still a bit confused. Hook up the headphone amp, but how would I get it to swap between the turntable input and the DAC input? Would I need the two output preamp you mentioned at first for that hookup? The R/PB thing is new to me.

I think I'm overthinking this somewhere.

Thanks

 

[pevsfreedom]

Also genuinely interested how "terrible" it is to have the HD6xx's 300 ohms connected to the S501 jack, at 470 ohms. From what I've read it will just cause a bass spike around 100hz. It seems to work prettty good, so if it's nothing to worry about (I don't have a headphone amp now to compare to) then maybe.. I won't worry about it, and just plug right in.

 

[Alcophone]

So a phono preamp with two outputs?

Oh, no, a general preamp, like the Schiit Freya or even the Schiit SYS with a Y-splitter would work since you only need two inputs. All your sources (phono preamp, DAC, ...) would go to the regular preamp, set to max volume (essentially pass through, assuming there's no gain), and its outputs would feed the Yamaha and a headphone amp. So it's just an input selector (that's also a thing, input selectors without volume control).

A phono preamp adjusts the low level phono signal to a full line level signal (and applies some EQ to undo the EQ done when creating the record), which other devices like a DAC, CD player, etc. produce by default.

Would DAC feed into the phono pre-amp? Curious how that would work (phono signal throw things off?) I was getting a ART DJPREII Phono Preamplifier, but obviously wouldn't be suited for that. Hard for me to picture how that would all work.

That was a misunderstanding, I hope with the above it's now more clear.

Yeah you can just select speakers off, in my mind though if there was something plugged into R and PB it would feed the signal to the PB and.. not? come out the speakers? Or it still would? This is my first integrated amp.

An integrated amp can be viewed as a series of devices just all in one box.
There's an input selector component of your Yamaha. That can be the direct entry point (all analog inputs except for phono) or indirect entry point (built-in phono preamp first increases the volume to line level and then sends it to the input selector, built-in DAC first converts a digital signal to line level analog and then sends it to the input selector, etc.).
So that input selector has a number of line level signals to pick from, and always mirrors those signals to line 2 and line 3 rec outputs. But those outputs are built with a tape deck in mind, which can be both a source and a recording device, and to prevent a loop where the tape deck is recording itself, the input selector deactivates the line 2 rec out if line 2 is the selected input and the line 3 rec out if line 3 is the selected input.
And there's a third output that's always on that goes to the volume control. The volume control likely only attenuates (reduces) the signal instead of boosting it.
Its output gets sent to multiple components as well. One is a summer, combining left and right to a mono subwoofer output. Another likely goes to the built-in headphone amp. And yet another goes to the built-in power amp. That one then goes to the speaker selector, which distributes it to the binding posts as needed. And of course there's more in the path, the mute function is likely right before or after the volume control.
With that mental graph in mind, you should be able to guess what happens under what circumstances. The rec outputs are very early in the chain, even the tone controls come later according to the manual.

In your example of setting it to line 2 or 3.. I am still a bit confused. Hook up the headphone amp, but how would I get it to swap between the turntable input and the DAC input? Would I need the two output preamp you mentioned at first for that hookup? The R/PB thing is new to me.

No, you wouldn't. The two rec outputs simply pass through the signal you selected as inputs on the Yamaha. So you can connect your DAC and phono preamp to the Yamaha, and use either of the rec outputs to feed the headphone amp, and select between DAC and phono preamp like you normally would on the Yamaha. Just make sure you're not connecting anything to the input that is paired with the rec out you're using, because that wouldn't get passed on to the rec out. So as far as your headphone amp is concerned you'd be using the Yamaha as a simple input selector, nothing more.

I think I'm overthinking this somewhere.

I probably through you for a loop with the separate preamp with two output idea. Forget about that.

Also genuinely interested how "terrible" it is to have the HD6xx's 300 ohms connected to the S501 jack, at 470 ohms. From what I've read it will just cause a bass spike around 100hz. It seems to work prettty good, so if it's nothing to worry about (I don't have a headphone amp now to compare to) then maybe.. I won't worry about it, and just plug right in.

I don't think it's an issue in terms of damaging the headphones. If you like the sound, there's no issue. A low impedance headphone amp hooked up properly would sound different. Whether it sounds better to you depends on your taste.

 

[pevsfreedom]

Oh, no, a general preamp, like the Schiit Freya or even the Schiit SYS with a Y-splitter would work since you only need two inputs. All your sources (phono preamp, DAC, ...) would go to the regular preamp, set to max volume (essentially pass through, assuming there's no gain), and its outputs would feed the Yamaha and a headphone amp. So it's just an input selector (that's also a thing, input selectors without volume control).

A phono preamp adjusts the low level phono signal to a full line level signal (and applies some EQ to undo the EQ done when creating the record), which other devices like a DAC, CD player, etc. produce by default.


That was a misunderstanding, I hope with the above it's now more clear.


An integrated amp can be viewed as a series of devices just all in one box.
There's an input selector component of your Yamaha. That can be the direct entry point (all analog inputs except for phono) or indirect entry point (built-in phono preamp first increases the volume to line level and then sends it to the input selector, built-in DAC first converts a digital signal to line level analog and then sends it to the input selector, etc.).
So that input selector has a number of line level signals to pick from, and always mirrors those signals to line 2 and line 3 rec outputs. But those outputs are built with a tape deck in mind, which can be both a source and a recording device, and to prevent a loop where the tape deck is recording itself, the input selector deactivates the line 2 rec out if line 2 is the selected input and the line 3 rec out if line 3 is the selected input.
And there's a third output that's always on that goes to the volume control. The volume control likely only attenuates (reduces) the signal instead of boosting it.
Its output gets sent to multiple components as well. One is a summer, combining left and right to a mono subwoofer output. Another likely goes to the built-in headphone amp. And yet another goes to the built-in power amp. That one then goes to the speaker selector, which distributes it to the binding posts as needed. And of course there's more in the path, the mute function is likely right before or after the volume control.
With that mental graph in mind, you should be able to guess what happens under what circumstances. The rec outputs are very early in the chain, even the tone controls come later according to the manual.


No, you wouldn't. The two rec outputs simply pass through the signal you selected as inputs on the Yamaha. So you can connect your DAC and phono preamp to the Yamaha, and use either of the rec outputs to feed the headphone amp, and select between DAC and phono preamp like you normally would on the Yamaha. Just make sure you're not connecting anything to the input that is paired with the rec out you're using, because that wouldn't get passed on to the rec out. So as far as your headphone amp is concerned you'd be using the Yamaha as a simple input selector, nothing more.


I probably through you for a loop with the separate preamp with two output idea. Forget about that.


I don't think it's an issue in terms of damaging the headphones. If you like the sound, there's no issue. A low impedance headphone amp hooked up properly would sound different. Whether it sounds better to you depends on your taste.

Well the Freya is beautiful, and funny enough I was looking at the SYS earlier today thinking "why would I need that?" lol - funny enough is also in the description.

So if I'm following properly, there's two things I could do:

1) Schitt SYS: Phono Amp + Dac > SYS > Y cable > S501 + Headphone amp, and then push the button when I want to use the speakers or the headphones?
I assume I'd set the DAC (a Focusrite Solo) to be max gain which I think is line level, then set this thing also to max and use the volume on the amp?

2) S501 itself: Had to re-read a few times... So the easiest thing is to just plug the headphone amp into the R on input 2 or 3, and the headphone amp will be fed the signal from the other inputs (phono pre amp/DAC/other)? I had no idea it worked like that! Very cool (assuming I understand properly).

Very interesting points regarding the line/playback information and the design of the amp in whole, I appreciate you typing that all out for me. Thanks!

 

[Alcophone]

Well the Freya is beautiful, and funny enough I was looking at the SYS earlier today thinking "why would I need that?" lol - funny enough is also in the description.

Ironically I only needed it as a volume control for the Vidar when I initially got it.
Fun fact: when you set its volume to max you can also use it in reverse (use the output as input and the two inputs as outputs and the input selector as an output selector) because it's completely passive.

So if I'm following properly, there's two things I could do:

1) Schitt SYS: Phono Amp + Dac > SYS > Y cable > S501 + Headphone amp, and then push the button when I want to use the speakers or the headphones?

The button would switch between Phono and DAC. When you want to use speakers, you turn the S501 on, when you want to use headphones, you turn the headphone amp on. Want to use both? Turn both on.
Or you could get two SYS (getting crazy), one as an input selector, one as an output selector, then the button on the second SYS would work as you say.

Of course either way you'd lose the ability to switch between sources with your remote. There's also the Saga instead of the Freya, since you're not running anything balanced that would do the trick as well, and that one has a remote.

Bypassing the Yamaha with a SYS would certainly consume less electricity. May or may not sound better. Whether a Saga consumes less electricity than an idling S501... I suspect so, but am not sure.

I assume I'd set the DAC (a Focusrite Solo) to be max gain which I think is line level, then set this thing also to max and use the volume on the amp?

Oh, good question. For most regular DACs the answer would be yes.
Since the Solo is more than a regular DAC it may well be hotter when cranked up all the way, not sure. But you can try - if there's distortion that goes away as you reduce its volume, you're getting clipping in the input stage of either the speaker or headphone amp (one may be fine with it, the other not, etc.). Should be safe to try it.

And yes, the preamp I'd set to max, though you can also play with using it as a volume control instead, especially if you get the Saga or more with stepped relay attenuation since that can be better than a potentiometer. Lots of options.

2) S501 itself: Had to re-read a few times... So the easiest thing is to just plug the headphone amp into the R on input 2 or 3, and the headphone amp will be fed the signal from the other inputs (phono pre amp/DAC/other)? I had no idea it worked like that! Very cool (assuming I understand properly).

Exactly!

Very interesting points regarding the line/playback information and the design of the amp in whole, I appreciate you typing that all out for me. Thanks!

You're welcome! I hope you find a satisfying solution!

 

[pevsfreedom]

In my mind I deal a lot with absolutes and as I'm going into the audio rabbit hole I'm learning a lot more of it is kind of like.. guitar. If it sounds good, it is good. Don't necessarily always need to worry about the why's, which I do Thanks again! Now I feel a bit like a dork because I just sent back a Schitt Magni I got a great deal on because I thought I wouldn't need it getting an integrated amp.. and who knows maybe I still don't, lol. It would be nice to be able to leave the headphones plugged into it though!