Yamaha YH-5000SE — a flagship from an orthodynamic headphones veteran!
Jan 4, 2023 at 9:27 PM Post #466 of 1,714
(While I was writing the following article, SolarCatacean had already explained the market mechanism perfectly. But let me post them because I made several charts and want someone to see them)

Seemingly it is time to open a class on microeconomics. In a free market, price is determined to balance demand and supply given the cost structure of the producers and the willingness to pay of the consumers. In a competitive market, a producer cannot sell their goods at higher prices because someone else will sell the same goods at a lower price.


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figure1. Market mechanism

However, each model of headphones is somehow unique even though competition exists. Sennheiser cannot produce ADX5000, and AT does not sell HD800s. So the actual sale is a choice between "higher price, less quantity" or "lower price, more quantity." Each product faces a different demand curve. In this case, goods A is more popular with the consumers than goods B, so the producer can sell more A than B at any price point.

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figure2. Demand curves

A "rationale" producer will maximize their profit (= sales - costs). In a simplified model, the cost consists of fixed and variable costs. Fixed costs consist of building, machinery, R&D, advertising, etc. Variable costs, which depend on the number of products, consist of material, labor, fuel, transport, etc.

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figure3. Costs

We can add a line of sales to the above chart. The slope of the line is the unit price of the product. If the sales exceed the total costs, they have a positive profit. Thus if the quantity is more than the breakeven point, it is a "success" in a simplified business model.

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figure 4. Profit and loss

Given the same cost structure, different price setting gives different breakeven points (q1 and q2). You should sell more goods if the price is lower to earn a profit, obviously.

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figure5. Price strategy

So the question to the producer is the shape of the product's demand curve. If they think consumers' willingness to pay is high enough, they will choose a higher price to enjoy lots of profits by selling the quantity qs. However, if the actual demand curve is much lower, they cannot sell enough numbers to earn a profit (qw).

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figure6. Weak or strong demand

In the case of YH-5000SE, already the price is shown. We, the consumers, give the demand curve and decide if YH-5000SE (and its price setting) is a success or failure in business. So far the demand looks high enough compared to the production capacity, but the final consequence is unknown until the end of the product's life.


P.S.1
Indeed I should say the above explanation of decision-making is too simplified. Yamaha produces many other products (unlike Meze or Final), and the headphones team mentioned they are considering expanding their product lineup. So they may put a higher price as a "statement" or a lower price because the R&D cost can be compensated by succeeding cheaper products, even if they lose some profit from YH-5000SE alone.

P.S.2
According to Yamaha's financial report, the profit ratio of the audio business is 1.6~10%. So I guess the profit margin is not much high. It can be a net loss easily because of the change of the business environment, such as inflation of energy, materials, and parts.

P.S.3
<For readers familiar with economics> I assumed constant marginal costs to simplify the explanation. In figures 3 - 6, profit and cost are the distance of the curves, not the areas surrounded by the curves.

P.S.4
Cost accounting is far more complex than the simple figure, and it needs experts to calculate the unit cost of a product precisely.
 

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Jan 4, 2023 at 9:41 PM Post #467 of 1,714
That's pretty good. I could have used these when I was "acting TA" for my wife (who has no business education bone in her body) in her MBA microecon class. Kudos.
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 2:30 AM Post #469 of 1,714
I translated a summary of two blog articles in Japanese written by consumers without COI.
One is by Pansaku who auditioned on the first occasion in September 2022.
https://pansaku.exblog.jp/30127212/
The other is by Yukihira who auditioned in e-earphone and Fujiya-avic more recently.
https://yuki3.hatenablog.jp/entry/2022/12/24/213737
Both of them are owners of D8000(pro). So the comparison will be interesting for many.
I also tried machine translation by DeepL. I think the English translation does not have much problem. If you are interested in reading the whole article in English, I can recommend DeepL. (especially Pansaku's essay-style review is quite long).


1. By Pansaku

Exterior:

It reminds a F1 engine developed by Yamaha Motor, not musical insturuments. Very compact. The appearance of the users when wearing it is also nice. (Unlike Meze Empyrean).
Ultra-light. This is the most significant feature of YH-5000SE. The lightweight should be contributing to the weak clamping force. Build quality is excellent. Each of the many parts is made from carefully selected material and has a special finish. Assembly should be very difficult.
The movement of the slider is very smooth. D8000 and other high-end headphones still lack care to such details. The headband has 3D stitch. It contributes to comfort. The yellow plastic parts in the connector are an interesting design.
Its appearance recalls previous great headphones:
- Housing of HD800 and HD700
- Metal mesh of MDR-Z1R
- 3D-stiched earpads of Utopia and D8000
- Slider of audio-technica
- Braid structure of Kimber cable for MDR-Z1R (option)
The similarity is a result of convergent evolution rather than imitation.

The sound:

(with ADI-2 DAC FS)
Surprised at the first moment. The music naturally dives into my brain. Easy-listening.
Modern, wide-range, natural, and holographic.
Flat frequency balance. Clearly different from the bass-centric sound of D8000. No typical impact in any frequency range. Same texture, volume, and high resolution in lows, mids, and highs.
The edge of the sound is a bit dim. Clean and transparent sound image. The color image is clear but not bold.
Wide sound stage. Stable positioning. Visible layer separation.
Uncharacteristic in a sense, high performance in every way, hard to point out flaws.
Comment of the engineer: "It is tuned to enjoy music, not to monitor for professionals." Though, fidelity is so high that it can be used to check fine detail of the sound.

(Pads)
- Sheep skin pads: clean, sharp, high resolution, and brisk.
- Suede pads: soft, mild, melody-oriented.

(with GT-5000(analogue) and C-5000)
The amp is not suitable for YH-5000SE, but I can enjoy the smooth flow and flexibility of the sound as well as a dynamic feeling of vinyl.
Light and deep dive is something new. The lightweight should be contributing to the novel experience.

(Competition)
The direct competitor is D8000 family. A similar level of sound quality in general. Attitude to bass will determine one's choice. If you like slim and fast bass, YH-5000SE is recommended with confidence. If you want more body of the lows, D8000. If your priority is long listening without fatigue, YH-5000SE is recommended above all else.
Its sound quality is similar level with other high-end phones, such as Susvara, LCD5, and Stealth. They are different in characters. The uniqueness of YH-5000SE is the lightweight and friendly-for-everyone sound tuning. It is the one and only.
YH-5000SE added lightweight, which was the last missing piece, to the world of high-end phones. In that sense, it is the ultimate of evolution.

Summary:
It is impressive that young engineers accomplished this product, but I suppose they had the support of Yamaha's corporate philosophy.
Audition in balanced cables with a stronger amp is necessary to assess its true potential.
Celebrating the diversity of high-end phones.


2. By Yukihira

At e-earphone


(Earmen Tradutto (RCA Out)→RE・LEAF E3 dC (Gain +6db , Current mode , 6.3mm))
Unexpectedly difficult to gain enough volume.
Cold and dry sound. Not my preference (warm and wet).
Sharp, cool, solid, presence. Imagined dCS Brtok DAC.
Given the price, a more nuanced, the smooth sound is expected

(Shanling M8, 4.4mm, Turbo gain)
The severe highs are calmed. Neat and orderly than the desktop system.


At Fujiya-avic
(MSB Discrete or Reference DAC (model not specified), MSB premier headphone amplifier)

Fujya-avic uses clean power supply system of PS audio. With this environment, few will complain about the price/performance balance. The sound quality is similar level with D8000. The two are differentiated from each other by different directions of sound tuning. If you want a massive body and large-scale sound, D8000 is recommended. If the sharp and fast sound is preferred, YH-5000SE. Both have high levels of speed and body, though. It is a matter of preference.

Slightly cold image, but not "blue", but rather "white background". Not too dry today. The "dry" impression in e-earphone might come from DAC Tradutto. (Though, still drier side compared to standard).

The YH-5000SE is revealing the flaws of the environment. I guess it is especially sensitive to the power supply because the power tap in e-earphone is very normal. The difference is very large. It proves the high performance and high potential of the unit. It reminds the arrival of Utopia five years ago. Forgiving-type phones are nice (I love empyrean's unique beautiful sound), but revealing-type phones have higher ultimate potential.

Tense sound. Not relaxed. The evaluation depends on your approach to music. YH-5000SE has a unique world with a sense of speed, transparency, and a kind of urgency.


END
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 2:48 AM Post #471 of 1,714
Just to clarify, when they say d8000 they mean the pro right?
Pansaku uses D8000pro as his current main gear, Yukihira uses original D8000. I suppose Yukihira mentions only the original D8000. Pansaku often says "D8000 family", so it is not clear whether each "D8000" means an original, pro, or pro-limited.
 
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Jan 5, 2023 at 3:06 AM Post #473 of 1,714
Hmm... Sounds like I'd probably find these a little too lean and analytical for my tastes.
One said in Twitter, YH-5000SE is HD800s improved in every aspect.
However, the other said it changes drastically by DAC and amp and it sounds very bold, deep, and strong in his system.
I will translate new tweets of the early adopters and those who auditioned in the new year holidays.
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 3:11 AM Post #474 of 1,714
One said in Twitter, YH-5000SE is HD800s improved in every aspect.
However, the other said it changes drastically by DAC and amp and it sounds very bold, deep, and strong in his system.
I will translate new tweets of the early adopters and those who auditioned in the new year holidays.
My 800S have been relegated to gaming/everyday desktop use because I didn't find its signature as pleasing for well-rounded listening. 😅
It's phenomenal with a few genres, tho.

Thanks for the translation and sharing with everyone here!
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 3:23 AM Post #475 of 1,714
One said in Twitter, YH-5000SE is HD800s improved in every aspect.
However, the other said it changes drastically by DAC and amp and it sounds very bold, deep, and strong in his system.
I will translate new tweets of the early adopters and those who auditioned in the new year holidays.

No Dac/Amp change the tonality of an Headphone 😉

NOMAX

PS.But that should be the least after more than 10 years of Axels HD800 😂
 
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Jan 5, 2023 at 4:06 AM Post #476 of 1,714
No Dac/Amp change the tonality of an Headphone 😉

NOMAX

PS.But that should be the least after more than 10 years of Axels HD800 😂
My personal experience suggests otherwise.

When I was listening to the Fiio FH9 IEMs on my iBasso DX300 MAX, the upper mids were extremely sharp, intolerable. When I went over to my friend's place, I listened to the FH9 on the Cayin N8ii, and it was a whole different experience. The upper mids were smooth and did not cause any fatigue whatsoever.

I had a similar experience when swapping iBasso DX3xx amp modules and listening to the iBasso SR2 headphones.

As a big skeptic, I can say the audible differences were quite drastic, and I used the same exact tracks, at the very same minute marks.

It is true, however, that there are limitations. Of course, you cannot turn a V-shaped sound signature into a flat sound signature with the help of only an amp/dac — not to my knowledge.
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 4:47 AM Post #477 of 1,714
For me a model should convince from the basic features of its tonal performance,if this is not the case...no cable/no dac and no amp helps me

NOMAX

PS.lol
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 6:14 AM Post #479 of 1,714
I beg to differ, but OK. Everyone should form their own opinion based on experience.
This!!!

As previously stated, I am a very big skeptic. This doesn't stop me from accepting other people's opinions, but it most certainly doesn't allow me to adopt them unless I share it from experience. For example, I neither deny nor believe cables affect sound, and when people say how big of a difference the cable makes, I accept their opinion/experience and believe them. Some things may seem outright insane, and that's what I find myself feeling a lot of the times I read about the little things that can affect sound.

When I was reading about microSD cards affecting sound performance, I was laughing. I was thinking to myself, "what's the next thing audiophiles will make up that affects sound?". Then, I proved myself wrong when it came to blind A/B testing and actually hearing an audible difference. Of course, I have no explanation as to why this occurred, nor do I have any scientific data that proves that there is an audible difference, but I discovered this difference with no bias — I was just listening and observing.

I always urge people to form their opinions exclusively from personal experience. Removing bias and expectations during the time of observation is also important. Don't let other people's experience and opinions get to you. Be fully naked and stripped down of any bias when it comes to actually forming your opinion. This way, you know that YOU formed the opinion based on YOUR OWN experience.
 
Jan 5, 2023 at 12:04 PM Post #480 of 1,714
Well yeah. Yamaha is not an upstart, they can design and price whatever they want. But this is an outlier in their stable. They don’t need to sell tons of this headphone to pay for salaries or their groceries.

I liked what Grado originally did. They had some of the first pricier ‘flagships’ with the HP1000 (and RS1). They also had the $69 SR60 which the general consensus was that it was a steal and got you ‘85% of the HP-1’. And they sold tons of them because of that. The HP1 was discontinued and the RS1 was brought in a couple of year later and away they went.
 

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