[Randino]

It seems that the only variable left might be your optical cable. Have you tried another one? It's odd that the one you have works with Bifrost and not with the Syn optical input, but I suppose that's possible. I think that would be the next logical troubleshooting step.

Okay, I've been fiddling with this today and may have some up with something. I'm swapping thru different optical cables to see if that makes a difference. Yeah, I did this before. No real differences.

My television is on and muted but the optical is still active. However, this time I'm sitting right beside my right channel speaker, ear level, and I'm clicking thru the SYN inputs. USB > Optical > Analog, over and over. As the lights/selection land on Optical, I'm getting a fraction of a second of sound thru that right channel speaker. Remember I said that the USB & analog inputs work fine. Could the issue be the switch or possibly a bad solder joint at one of the switch's terminals?

Schiit repair said, "Syn has output on all sample rates 44.1 - 192K." I don't have any idea where they were measuring 'output.' I've sent them an email explaining this so we'll see what happens next week.

Thanks for the reply Tbone.

 

[Pondoro]

Again, Thanks! I think you are heading toward a crux issue: Stereo Imaging. I have always felt the stereo imaging is actually a false effect. I do enjoy the effect, but I think the more diffuse soundfield produced by the Syn with processing on is closer to what you would hear live -- electronic or acoustic instruments, big or small venue, indoors or out.
I also think that recordings that sound really good in stereo also sound really good with Syn processing. Leads me to believe that the recording process is valid, and that the 'excess location specificty' that I hear in a good stereo system is an natural artifact of two channel reproduction. It's seems almost the same effect I have always seen in stereo visual presentation (i.e. the old Viewmaster discs).

Fun Stuff, Skip

You are bravely treading on hallowed ground. I neither agree nor disagree. I’m just pointing out that the mob with their pitchforks might come for you. I’m not a psychologist. I have set up both the Hafler four channel simulation and the Paul Klipsch phantom middle channel. I liked both but did not stay with them. My understanding of Syn is that it does the Hafler and the Klipsch stuff, with variable intensity.

 

[Skip Pack]

You are bravely treading on hallowed ground. I neither agree nor disagree. I’m just pointing out that the mob with their pitchforks might come for you. I’m not a psychologist. I have set up both the Hafler four channel simulation and the Paul Klipsch phantom middle channel. I liked both but did not stay with them. My understanding of Syn is that it does the Hafler and the Klipsch stuff, with variable intensity.

I'm surprised at the lack of response myself. I've made similar coments on Audiophile Style with little response there, some mildly affirmative. While stereo 'imaging' is the cream on top in many audio commentaries, I think most people realize that they haven't really heard it in live performance.

WRT the Syn proceesed output versus the early speaker level schemes: I think that using staged active line-level buffers lets the designer at least have a chance to create a purer center channel (less signal from either side only) and, by extension, side channels with very little common signal. I haven't designed this in my mind, nor have I read or heard anything from Jason along these lines. I just suspect it is more effective with active buffering and opens more options to the designer.

A final note, I also suspect that a well assembled immersive music oriented system, say 5 or 7 base level channels, 2 to 4 height channels and 2-3 subs (not LFE) might diminish the stereo imaging in one sense but still sound much better than stereo or a Syn system. Just a guess.

This post is repetitive, but keeps the discussion easy to read.

 

[Tbone289]

Okay, I've been fiddling with this today and may have some up with something. I'm swapping thru different optical cables to see if that makes a difference. Yeah, I did this before. No real differences.

My television is on and muted but the optical is still active. However, this time I'm sitting right beside my right channel speaker, ear level, and I'm clicking thru the SYN inputs. USB > Optical > Analog, over and over. As the lights/selection land on Optical, I'm getting a fraction of a second of sound thru that right channel speaker. Remember I said that the USB & analog inputs work fine. Could the issue be the switch or possibly a bad solder joint at one of the switch's terminals?

Schiit repair said, "Syn has output on all sample rates 44.1 - 192K." I don't have any idea where they were measuring 'output.' I've sent them an email explaining this so we'll see what happens next week.

Thanks for the reply Tbone.

This is quite a quandary. You've tried multiple sources and multiple toslink cables with the same result. I suppose a bad switch or contact is a possibility, but that should show up in their testing. I'd be interested in your further communication with Schiit and how this is resolved.

I had a similar issue with a Gungnir multibit DAC when it was upgraded to Unison. It wouldn't even boot up and show LED indicators at my house, but passed testing at Schiit. I had to send it in two more times and finally the issue was fixed and it has worked perfectly ever since. Don't give up on it; I'm sure they'll sort out the issue for you eventually. I understand the frustration from the downtime though, especially when it works perfectly fine with an external DAC.

 

[Astral Abyss]

I had an issue with the optical input on my Syn also. One day it just stopped working. After fiddling with it and trying several things, it turned out that the optical cable wasn't seating properly in the Syn. The connection is kind of loose and I had to push really hard for it to lock in. It's been working fine now and I'm just not going to touch it.

 

[Randino]

This is getting more and more curious. I've been swapping emails with the Schiit support staff and the most recent suggestion is to try the SYN with nothing but the optical hooked up. So I did this yesterday evening and it worked just like it was supposed to. But . . . if I plug in a powered down USB source into the SYN at the same time, the optical input dies. It will work for a few seconds IF I switch thru the source selections but each trip thru those selections results in less and less duration of music from that optical. After 3 or 4 passes thru the sources, I lose the optical input completely.

So the reply I'm getting from Schiit CS is:

The USB device is likely muting the CM6635 (a cmedia 6635 chip I think) directly instead of muting its own output. You'll need to look into settings it has to see if it can be disabled.​

Is it just me or should the SYN not be having issue with another input source? Especially when that source is powered off and not presenting a signal? In case you're curious that source is a Brennan B2. A killer little device that's no longer made. (They've moved on to the B3 model) So my sources are This B2 that has USB or optical outputs and my TV that ONLY has an optical output. Frankly I'm a bit disappointed.

What do you guys think?

 

[Astral Abyss]

What do you guys think?

I think that Brennan B2 device is way cooler than the Syn. Can't believe I never heard of it.

Typical Schiit answer. Very short and terse.

 

[Tbone289]

This makes sense, and I've seen similar operation with Fulla E, which has the same C-Media USB input chip. Basically, if there is a signal presented at the USB input, Fulla will default to USB and won't automatically switch over to optical. This is intended operation, as the DAC in Fulla has to have some direction as to what input to default to, since there is no way to physically switch between USB and optical otherwise. However, I wouldn't expect Syn to operate that way since you should be able to physically select the input you want.

I think what Schiit support is saying is that Syn expects The USB device to mute itself when not in use, rather than sending a mute signal to the C-Media chip, which in turn mutes Syn. So, basically you have a software/firmware incompatibility between the B2 and Syn. I can understand your disappointment, but I can't blame Schiit for assuming that a USB device will act a certain way. Typically in cases like this, you will ensure compatibility with *most* devices, but that doesn't ensure compatibility with *all* devices. I'll try to test mine with various USB sources in combination with optical to see if I get the same results.

EDIT: I agree with @Astral Abyss above, the B2 is a really cool device I've never seen before. I love Syn though; so I wouldn't say it's "cooler".

 

[Randino]

Tbone, you bring up great points regarding that C-Media chip. The kicker is that the B2 was turned off when I discovered this. I'd have audio playing thru the optical feed and if I plugged in that powered down USB, the optical feed stopped. I might be able to live with it if the optical would work with the USB device powered down. It's kinda curious that my Gen 1 Bifrost doesn't have an issue with these inputs. Makes me wonder if the USB upgrade for the Gen 1 Bifrost uses that same C-Media chip. I was thinking about buying one but not now. I suppose I'll wait to see what Schiit CS says about the SYN issue. I'll keep y'all posted.

Yeah that B2 is way cool. I bought my first one around 3 years ago. Now I've got 2 of them and just installed a second one at my 77 year old brother's house this past weekend. There ARE limitations with the B2 but the advantages far outweigh them. With a 2TB hard drive inside, the 1200 CD's I've loaded onto it have taken up around half its capacity. The biggest plus is that I'm listening to more music than ever because it's so convenient. Besides that, there are around 40,000+ radio stations available for your listening pleasure. My greatest find is Blues Radio ATHENS, as in ATHENS, GREECE!! It's all in English and NO commercials!! About every 20 minutes or so you might hear someone say, "You're listening to blues radio Athens," or something along those lines. I've discovered some great music on that station and all their playlists are available for something like the past 5 days. Give it a listen!
As an FYI the Brennan B2 has been discontinued, the new model is the B3. Most of us 'old guys' like our B2's better but the B3 is a sweet machine too.

I'll let you know what happens with the SYN. It might be for sale before long.

 

[Tbone289]

Tbone, you bring up great points regarding that C-Media chip. The kicker is that the B2 was turned off when I discovered this. I'd have audio playing thru the optical feed and if I plugged in that powered down USB, the optical feed stopped. I might be able to live with it if the optical would work with the USB device powered down. It's kinda curious that my Gen 1 Bifrost doesn't have an issue with these inputs. Makes me wonder if the USB upgrade for the Gen 1 Bifrost uses that same C-Media chip. I was thinking about buying one but not now. I suppose I'll wait to see what Schiit CS says about the SYN issue. I'll keep y'all posted.

Unison USB is is a proprietary Schiit implementation, and does not use C-Media USB input chips. I believe the current Modi is the only stand-alone Schiit DAC that uses CM6635. The earlier generations of Bifrost USB inputs used other C-Media chips such as CM6631A.

I tested USB from two Android devices and a Windows 10 laptop connected in conjunction with optical from a TV to Syn's DAC, and I can't duplicate your issue. The input followed what I had switched on the front panel and always had output. It acts the same as all external Schiit DACs I've used with Syn: Bifrost Gen1 Multibit Unison, Bifrost 2 OG and Modius E. All of those have Unison USB.

Knowing now that the Brennan B2 seems to act differently than the USB devices I tried, here are a few more things I would try to troubleshoot:

• A different A to C USB cable from BB2 (with no conversion adapters)
• All possible USB ports from BB2
• BB2 powered down and unplugged from power. Just because BB2 is powered down doesn't mean it's not sending a signal over USB.

 

[Randino]

Great news about the Unison setup!!
I've thought about the suggestions you've made and Schiit CS made some of the same. They're not familiar with the B2 so I'll try the other USB jack on the back of it. You may be right about the B2 pulling power even though it's turned off. The B2 does come with a remote control and when it's in 'sleep' mode, the remote will wake it up. So will any command from the B2 browser interface (computer or phone). All good suggestions and I'll try them this evening.
Thanks Tbone!

 

[Randino]

It's one of those good news, bad news situations. The good news is that the SYN is working as it's 'supposed' to. The bad news is that the optical input from my television WILL NOT be functional due to the Brennan USB input to the SYN.

If I unplugged the USB cable at the Brennan, all good. If that Brennan B2 is plugged into the SYN AND plugged into power, the optical input of the SYN will not function. Apparently there is some sort of low level signal coming thru either of the Brennan B2 USB jacks that will override the optical input of the SYN. Unplug the B2 from the mains, all good.

I'll alert the Brennan people (and Schiit) about this and maybe there's a firmware update that would correct the situation. Until then, I'll need to fashion some sort of external power switch between the B2 power brick (24VDC) and the mains.

Again Tbone, thanks for your help. This was one of those weird one that user forums help us figure out.

If I get any further resolutions for this I'll be sure to post them.

 

[Tbone289]

Good news, bad news indeed...but glad we got to the bottom of the situation, and that I was able to help.

My thinking was the same as yours; if unplugging the BB2 worked, fashion a satisfactory way to power it off completely. Using a bluetooth power outlet or similar comes to mind...

 

[Pondoro]

It's one of those good news, bad news situations. The good news is that the SYN is working as it's 'supposed' to. The bad news is that the optical input from my television WILL NOT be functional due to the Brennan USB input to the SYN.

If I unplugged the USB cable at the Brennan, all good. If that Brennan B2 is plugged into the SYN AND plugged into power, the optical input of the SYN will not function. Apparently there is some sort of low level signal coming thru either of the Brennan B2 USB jacks that will override the optical input of the SYN. Unplug the B2 from the mains, all good.

I'll alert the Brennan people (and Schiit) about this and maybe there's a firmware update that would correct the situation. Until then, I'll need to fashion some sort of external power switch between the B2 power brick (24VDC) and the mains.

Again Tbone, thanks for your help. This was one of those weird one that user forums help us figure out.

If I get any further resolutions for this I'll be sure to post them.

I long for the good old days, when a big red power switch, or full counterclockwise rotation of a volume knob, shut everything off, entirely. Power switches today are merely suggestions.