Are STAX really too expensive? Thinking thread (okay and maybe advocating).
Jun 26, 2008 at 8:48 PM Post #76 of 198
Making new converts at an alarming rate? Excellent...
tongue.gif


Just about any amp can be used to drive the Stax boxes and even some headphone amps but that isn't true of the Koss adapters as they can and will damage the wrong amp. Common ground is not good for switching amps.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 9:10 PM Post #77 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you get a adapter instead of an amp, the amps to drive Stax are unlimited. Just about any speaker amp will drive them. I drive stats at work with a T amp. At home I use a NAD 3155.


What does this mean? A breakout from the Stax plug to speaker wires?

It would certainly pique my interest if I could just buy the headset and use my NAD amp.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 9:22 PM Post #78 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto Atreides II /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What does this mean? A breakout from the Stax plug to speaker wires?

It would certainly pique my interest if I could just buy the headset and use my NAD amp.



Yes, that is exactly what the adapter is.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 9:38 PM Post #79 of 198
It's a transformer in a box that connects to the speaker outs. It ups the voltage to the bias voltage for the ear speakers. For normal bias Stax, they're relatively cheap. I bought my SRD-7, which has 2 jacks, for $75.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 9:58 PM Post #80 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
True. That one is most definitely a 'niche' market though =).


Yeah, plus everybody knows that orthos are rubbish :p
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 10:04 PM Post #81 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yeah, plus everybody knows that orthos are rubbish :p


Ya, collectors item with no real return value - terrible investment for anyone in the right mindset on head-fi. The best things to get are those that are popular and sell easy.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 10:46 PM Post #82 of 198
I think that when it comes to relatively simple plug-and-play solutions, modern Stax headphones are competitive price/performance-wise at any price-point with most mainstream headphone hi-fi gear - or are just outright better. What that means is that the SR-001 is competitive with any amped portable system for the money (better, IMO), the 2020/2050 is definitely competitive with or better than most entry-level dynamic headphone/stationary amp combos, and so on up to the O2, which is easily competitive with top-tier balanced dynamic offerings.

But, if you dig deeper, and start to look at vintage headphones and various undiscovered gems, I find that a lot of modern Stax headphones underperform for the price, until you get to the O2 together with aftermarket boutique amps. There, you'll get your money's worth, but it will be one heck of a lot of money.

What I mean is, sure, the SR-404/SRM-323 system will easily match most popular dynamic headphone/amp combos that we readily recommend without giving them a second though, and will probably beat most of them too. And, it's a bloody shame that we don't recommend it for general purposes more often, instead of some of the crap that we generally throw around at unsuspecting members. But, I had a vintage K340, costing $200, out of a vintage tube amp, costing another $200, that blew the SR-404 with the SRM-007t amp away. That's, what, a $400 system against a $1500-ish system? For the same money as that Stax setup, I ran an HD650 off a push-pull speaker amp, and it was simply in a different universe sonically. The only thing that compared to it was the O2.

So, while I share a certain planar enthusiasm (especially when it comes to the SR-001/003) I think that, if you're willing to put in the effort - and especially DIY effort - you can come up with a better dynamic rig for the money than a modern electrostatic one, until you get to the very high end. There, IMO electrostatics rule supreme.

Note, of course, that I say "modern electrostatic" instead of just "electrostatic." I have no experience with vintage 'stats. It's entirely possible that the same $400 will net me a system that would blow my K340 rig away.

BUT! That doesn't mean that you shouldn't look into modern Stax setups, since, as I've said, they're easily as good as most dynamic setups that are commercially available, and sound a lot more attractive to my ears.

In terms of what's driving people away from Stax - I think that this is similar to what's driving people away from vinyl. With a Stax rig, you need an AC outlet, a dedicated amp (no matter how inexpensive it is), and a pretty good source (for the entry level systems anyway, the high end needs a monster source). None of this has to be expensive, but it all takes time and effort to put together, and more importantly, it's all tied to a stationary location. So, when you listen to these systems, you pretty much have to sit and listen, dedicating time that, in our busy lifestyles, could be spent on the move. When you buy something like a D2000, sure, it doesn't sound as good as even a well-driven SR-003, but it can be used anywhere, out of nearly anything, and it doesn't restrict what you want to do when you're listening to it.

In other words, Stax, by nature, are much more suited to being a "main rig." And a casual newcomer to the forums isn't interested in a main rig. He wants a general all-round solution, and other than the 001, Stax doesn't really offer that. Then, once you put some money into dynamic gear, it's harder to dump it all and go into something different rather than go along your existing path.

It's the same thing with vinyl - you have to put a record on, and then you basically have to sit down and listen to it. It doesn't have the convenience of an mp3 player and a pair of portable headphones, or a hard-drive full of mp3s. It doesn't fit into the modern lifestyle as well, no matter how much better it can sound.

Still, don't get me wrong, I love 'stats. I didn't start out in dynamics; I grew up on 'stats and that's my "default" sound. Dynamics were a fun diversion for a while, but I'm over that now. That's just my thoughts after several years on both sides of the fence.

P.S. In terms of electrostatics being only suited to classical and acoustic genres - that's BS. Even more BS is that 'stats can't do bass. Sure, 'stats on average have less bass impact than dynamics, but saying that 'stats can't do bass is like saying that dynamics can't do speed or detail. You have to hear a (well-fitted, this is critical) Qualia 010 to belive how fast and detailed (and just how plain @#$&ing good) it can be. You also have to hear a simple 003 out of an SRD-7 Pro to hear how impactful it can be. Properly driven, it has enough bass and impact to shatter your skull.

I think 'stats can do more genres right than dynamics can. Dynamics struggle more on fast and dense music than electrostats do on bass-heavy music.

P.P.S. In terms of Stax lacking build quality - that's not just BS, that's just insane. How many working SR-5's, SR-X's, Lambdas, Sigmas, whatever have you, do we still have, in many cases 40 years after their initial release? They may not look good, but I have never, ever seen another company put as much thought into the construction of its headphones as Stax goes.

These headphones are precision instruments. That means that you have to treat them right, and you shouldn't abuse them in the same way you can abuse cheap dynamics. But, if you do treat them right, they will literally last you your lifetime, and try saying that about another headphone brand.

P.P.P.S. By "mainstream" I don't mean Bose. I mean stuff that's popular in this community, and others like it.

@#$& me, another essay. K cat, back to work.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 10:58 PM Post #83 of 198
hmm i think im a6t the crossroads of going stax etc or dynamic for a home rig as i have none yet, no amp nothing its time to go for one or th eother, like you say it seems it can sort of be a lock in hmmm
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 11:34 PM Post #85 of 198
Instead of the DT880 and Little Dot MKIV, I found these:

STAX SRS-2050A

They should roughly be the same price, and I hope they are good (around $500 shipped). How would the soundstage and bass compare to a dynamic setup? Will I need a voltage transformer for these?

Btw, they look quite awkward lol.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 11:42 PM Post #86 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think that when it comes to relatively simple plug-and-play solutions, modern Stax headphones are competitive price/performance-wise at any price-point with most mainstream headphone hi-fi gear - or are just outright better. What that means is that the SR-001 is competitive with any amped portable system for the money (better, IMO), the 2020/2050 is definitely competitive with or better than most entry-level dynamic headphone/stationary amp combos, and so on up to the O2, which is easily competitive with top-tier balanced dynamic offerings.

But, if you dig deeper, and start to look at vintage headphones and various undiscovered gems, I find that a lot of modern Stax headphones underperform for the price, until you get to the O2 together with aftermarket boutique amps. There, you'll get your money's worth, but it will be one heck of a lot of money.

What I mean is, sure, the SR-404/SRM-323 system will easily match most popular dynamic headphone/amp combos that we readily recommend without giving them a second though, and will probably beat most of them too. And, it's a bloody shame that we don't recommend it for general purposes more often, instead of some of the crap that we generally throw around at unsuspecting members. But, I had a vintage K340, costing $200, out of a vintage tube amp, costing another $200, that blew the SR-404 with the SRM-007t amp away. That's, what, a $400 system against a $1500-ish system? For the same money as that Stax setup, I ran an HD650 off a push-pull speaker amp, and it was simply in a different universe sonically. The only thing that compared to it was the O2.

So, while I share a certain planar enthusiasm (especially when it comes to the SR-001/003) I think that, if you're willing to put in the effort - and especially DIY effort - you can come up with a better dynamic rig for the money than a modern electrostatic one, until you get to the very high end. There, IMO electrostatics rule supreme.

Note, of course, that I say "modern electrostatic" instead of just "electrostatic." I have no experience with vintage 'stats. It's entirely possible that the same $400 will net me a system that would blow my K340 rig away.

BUT! That doesn't mean that you shouldn't look into modern Stax setups, since, as I've said, they're easily as good as most dynamic setups that are commercially available, and sound a lot more attractive to my ears.

In terms of what's driving people away from Stax - I think that this is similar to what's driving people away from vinyl. With a Stax rig, you need an AC outlet, a dedicated amp (no matter how inexpensive it is), and a pretty good source (for the entry level systems anyway, the high end needs a monster source). None of this has to be expensive, but it all takes time and effort to put together, and more importantly, it's all tied to a stationary location. So, when you listen to these systems, you pretty much have to sit and listen, dedicating time that, in our busy lifestyles, could be spent on the move. When you buy something like a D2000, sure, it doesn't sound as good as even a well-driven SR-003, but it can be used anywhere, out of nearly anything, and it doesn't restrict what you want to do when you're listening to it.

In other words, Stax, by nature, are much more suited to being a "main rig." And a casual newcomer to the forums isn't interested in a main rig. He wants a general all-round solution, and other than the 001, Stax doesn't really offer that. Then, once you put some money into dynamic gear, it's harder to dump it all and go into something different rather than go along your existing path.

It's the same thing with vinyl - you have to put a record on, and then you basically have to sit down and listen to it. It doesn't have the convenience of an mp3 player and a pair of portable headphones, or a hard-drive full of mp3s. It doesn't fit into the modern lifestyle as well, no matter how much better it can sound.

Still, don't get me wrong, I love 'stats. I didn't start out in dynamics; I grew up on 'stats and that's my "default" sound. Dynamics were a fun diversion for a while, but I'm over that now. That's just my thoughts after several years on both sides of the fence.

P.S. In terms of electrostatics being only suited to classical and acoustic genres - that's BS. Even more BS is that 'stats can't do bass. Sure, 'stats on average have less bass impact than dynamics, but saying that 'stats can't do bass is like saying that dynamics can't do speed or detail. You have to hear a (well-fitted, this is critical) Qualia 010 to belive how fast and detailed (and just how plain @#$&ing good) it can be. You also have to hear a simple 003 out of an SRD-7 Pro to hear how impactful it can be. Properly driven, it has enough bass and impact to shatter your skull.

I think 'stats can do more genres right than dynamics can. Dynamics struggle more on fast and dense music than electrostats do on bass-heavy music.

P.P.S. In terms of Stax lacking build quality - that's not just BS, that's just insane. How many working SR-5's, SR-X's, Lambdas, Sigmas, whatever have you, do we still have, in many cases 40 years after their initial release? They may not look good, but I have never, ever seen another company put as much thought into the construction of its headphones as Stax goes.

These headphones are precision instruments. That means that you have to treat them right, and you shouldn't abuse them in the same way you can abuse cheap dynamics. But, if you do treat them right, they will literally last you your lifetime, and try saying that about another headphone brand.

P.P.P.S. By "mainstream" I don't mean Bose. I mean stuff that's popular in this community, and others like it.

@#$& me, another essay. K cat, back to work.



That's a great post, you're saying all the useful info that needs to be known about electrostats. Noobs, listen to this guy, he speaks the truth.
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 11:47 PM Post #88 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by tml09 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Instead of the DT880 and Little Dot MKIV, I found these:

STAX SRS-2050A

They should roughly be the same price, and I hope they are good (around $500 shipped). How would the soundstage and bass compare to a dynamic setup?

Btw, they look quite awkward lol.



Buy the Dt880 and post the link to the Stax here please.
biggrin.gif
 
Jun 26, 2008 at 11:59 PM Post #89 of 198
Quote:

Originally Posted by John E Woven /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So if I buy say, an SR404 + srd6 or something, I plug the speaker amp into the source (in my case, s/pdif toslink goodness), then the L/R from my speaker amp into the srd6, plug the stax in, and it's done?


The SRD-6 is normal bias. The SR-404 is pro bias. While you can drive a pro-bias headphone with a normal-bias box, it's not going to sound as good. You want either a pro-bias box (SRD-7 Pro or MkII) or a normal-bias phone (Lambda).

In terms of how you use it - the transformer boxes have their own speaker leads. You just hook them up to the outputs of your speaker amp, and there's a schematic showing you how. It couldn't be any easier. Then plug in the headphones into the transformer, plug that sucker in, switch it to headphone output, and off you go.

Note that pro-bias transformer boxes are pretty expensive these days and are rare as balls. Normal-bias Lambdas are also pretty rare, but are probably a better option.

There's also the Illusion transformer box; a very rare third-party effort that's supposedly quite a bit better than the Stax stuff. I know Carl used one to drive an HE60 out of a speaker amp, and spoke highly of it.

We really do need more transformers on the market. Stax's own stuff isn't big enough to drive the O2 well, though it handles lower-end Stax stuff just fine. Still, this technology is decades old, and I'm sure it can be done better, without the rarity and collectible status adding to the price.
 

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