[Currawong]

Quote:

  Perhaps "dark" isn't a good word for describing the sound here. With the stock hd800, I found it to be quite bright with the nfb-10es2 as a dac and amp.
 
Quote:

   
Both Audio-gd and Headamp are sponsors FYI.

I did not know a-gd was a sponsor here... Didn't see them on the sponsors page

 
There are three levels of sponsors, each which show up in different amounts.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

Sorry Darknight - I did not mean to put words in your mouth.  I re-read your post and I misinterpreted it.  I've heard a lot of good things about the Phoenix (it's almost legendary) and I would imagine the that the M9 is an all around improvement.  
 
So if one were to run the HD800's with a M9, what would an appropriate DAC be?  Perhaps an M51?  How does the M7 stack up?
 
My other question is the volume control (and this one is a bit silly).  There is so much talk about all the different pots out there.  Heck, upgrading the pot is a regular option for many high-end amps.  My HTS 7.1 has a similar volume control feature to the M9 in that is button controlled (and essentially a stepped pot).  Is this done simply for use of a remote vs a motorized pot which can be problematic?

 

[Makiah S]

  Kevin Gilmore (GSX/Dynalo etc designer) holds the Master 5/6/8/9 in extremely high regard. He said he couldn't even AFFORD to purchase the bare parts of the M8 for $1500-let alone SELL it for that. The price difference comes down to two things-being made in China, and the chassis/aesthetics of the Usa-made GSX is surely a fair cost higher. And-we don't know the exact margins-but I'd wager Kingwa, especially with his mass market approach, and huge catalog-nets an extremely small margin-surely less than Justin.
 
Sonically-they are both classified as being wire with gain, extremely neutral (I'd argue the M8 is more neutral). If that's the case (I believe it is based on impressions, and my own Master 8 experience)-then for all intents and purposes they sound pretty darn similar. Dubstep Girl recently made some of the same comparison impressions of the her own GSXII w/ the M8 she just heard at the ChiUnifi meet:http://www.head-fi.org/t/688561/chiunifi-7-5-november-2-2013#post_9945375.
 
Also, a few reasons why people go for the GSX over the Master 8/9:
 
1.) Aesthetics/bragging rights (big Headamp hype on this site-gorgeous build)
2.) Made in the USA vs. made in China (go figure-plus warranty shipping issues is a factor)
3.) Some anti-AGD lately on this site (imo)-people upset Kingwa releases a new product at least once per month etc)
4.) More GSX/Dynalo etc in the wild than M8's-by a fair margin. Snowball effect from this-magnified by above stated reasons.
 
My .02.
 
-Daniel

Ppl are made that KingWa release new gear like every month... why? I mean the man literally breathe's amps... if he's spending like every day desgining and re designing his amps, new and old... that's not a bad thing. Heck my NFb 10ES2 is already out dated, as the NFB 10ES3 is out now :O
 
That said, get the Audio GD. I got my 10ES2 in like 3 days, shipped from China by KingWa... granted made in the USA is a great thing but... can't beat the value of KingWa
s gear 

 

[Greed]

  Ppl are made that KingWa release new gear like every month... why? I mean the man literally breathe's amps... if he's spending like every day desgining and re designing his amps, new and old... that's not a bad thing. Heck my NFb 10ES2 is already out dated, as the NFB 10ES3 is out now :O
 
That said, get the Audio GD. I got my 10ES2 in like 3 days, shipped from China by KingWa... granted made in the USA is a great thing but... can't beat the value of KingWa
s gear 

 
Probably has to do with value and resell value. If new models are constantly being released, and old models are constantly being revised, that kills resell value for the most part. Same thing has happened to a few that have tried to sell their Cavalli MK I amps. 
 
And of course, the fact that one no longer has the "best" their is. 

 

[seeteeyou]

.

 

[Makiah S]

   
Probably has to do with value and resell value. If new models are constantly being released, and old models are constantly being revised, that kills resell value for the most part. Same thing has happened to a few that have tried to sell their Cavalli MK I amps. 
 
And of course, the fact that one no longer has the "best" their is. 

I guess, that could be an issue. But the old models aren't "bad" and if your on a budget a used AUdio GD is perfectly fine. Heck not many ppl sell them anyways... so when you do upgrade there is always some one who'd LOVE to get ur old model at a slighty lower price 

 

[BournePerfect]

Curra described to a 'T' what I meant by 'dark'.
 
I wasn't aware that DG heard the M7 with the M8 at ChiUnifi-I thought she heard it with the (notoriously bright) Mytek? I will say that the M7/M8 is extremely 'dead nuts neutral', and would fare much better with say an ortho than the HD800. Part of that is that there is almost no euphony to be found there (HD800 needs a touch imo)-coupled with the M7 presentation is very wide, not very 3D imo, and sounds like you're in at least the 5th row back. Add that to the already spacious/distant HD800 soundstage, and I didn't like the combo for pop/rock/ intimacy-but I recon it would be outstanding for full scale classical.
 
Also, I think Greed hit it on the head why some people have been turned off by Audio gd (compared to the recent past). Whether the reasoning is fair or not-it is what it is. Perception is reality.
 
-Daniel+

 

[bigfatpaulie]

This is good stuff - that's fellow Head-Fi'ers.  I really appreciate it.
 
If the M7 is too neutral then perhaps the M51 would be a good choice.  Jon Iverson (Stereophile) described it as:
 
"wonderfully detailed and revealing sound best described as honest, with a friendly smile."
 
Sounds like a it may be a good fit for the M9.  As far as you know, are there other DAC's I should consider?  The reason I ask is because I would be changing my DAC first, then the amp.

 

[BournePerfect]

The M51 seems to be hit or miss depending on who you ask. I do know that some have said it's a good match for the HD800. Otoh-you might consider killing two birds with one stone and saving some $$ in the process. There's a couple of Headfiers here (NigelJames and Clemmaster iirc) who have had excellent results with the AGD NFB27-and it's a bargain for what you get (all in one balanced amp/dac). It supposedly soesn't suffer from the harsh digital sound that other Sabre units tend to exhibit.
 
-Daniel

 

[Currawong]

  My other question is the volume control (and this one is a bit silly).  There is so much talk about all the different pots out there.  Heck, upgrading the pot is a regular option for many high-end amps.  My HTS 7.1 has a similar volume control feature to the M9 in that is button controlled (and essentially a stepped pot).  Is this done simply for use of a remote vs a motorized pot which can be problematic?

 
The full-size Audio-gd amps don't use pots, they use resistors and a relay system at the output of the current gain stage (and for I/V conversion) for better results.
 
If you get the full Audio-gd kit, you can use the ACSS connection and not bother worrying about how good or not your ICs are. That will also bypass the V/I and I/V stage respectively in each component, connecting the current gain stages together instead.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

After I posted, I read that on their site - thank you.  It all sounds pretty impressive and I am surprised to not see this system more commonly implemented in other high end HP amps as it seems pretty common in the high-end, full sized pre/pro world.
 
I also asked Kingwa about the NFB27 and Reference 10.32 as they seem similar and received the reply below:
 
 
Dear Paul,
Their price is different but the grade is same.
The NFB27 sound emphasize detail and dynamic, the bass is control and tight.
The Reference 10.32 sound had not emphasize anythings but have not miss .
In compare the NFB27 is slight brighter than the Reference 10.32.
But the users have not feedback both sound bright or too dark.
Kingwa
 
 
Sounds like the two are almost indistinguishable - especially if not put side by side.  The NFB27 sounds like a steal of a deal.  The only issue with it is being locked into a DAC/AMP combo.

 

[thegunner100]

  Sounds like the two are almost indistinguishable - especially if not put side by side.  The NFB27 sounds like a steal of a deal.  The only issue with it is being locked into a DAC/AMP combo.

Hmm interesting! Well you won't get locked into a dac/amp combo cause the two units both have analog inputs and outputs so that they can be used either only as a dac or only as a amp.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

But then I end up with either amp or DAC circuitry that is not being used so it's a bit of a waste.  That said, it may be so great that I will won't want to upgrade (a likely scenario...  Ahem).  

 

[Makiah S]

  After I posted, I read that on their site - thank you.  It all sounds pretty impressive and I am surprised to not see this system more commonly implemented in other high end HP amps as it seems pretty common in the high-end, full sized pre/pro world.
 
I also asked Kingwa about the NFB27 and Reference 10.32 as they seem similar and received the reply below:
 
 
Dear Paul,
Their price is different but the grade is same.
The NFB27 sound emphasize detail and dynamic, the bass is control and tight.
The Reference 10.32 sound had not emphasize anythings but have not miss .
In compare the NFB27 is slight brighter than the Reference 10.32.
But the users have not feedback both sound bright or too dark.
Kingwa
 
 
Sounds like the two are almost indistinguishable - especially if not put side by side.  The NFB27 sounds like a steal of a deal.  The only issue with it is being locked into a DAC/AMP combo.

Actually I have some experince with PCM dacs, they are [imo] more organic than the ESS Sabre he's using in the NFB 27. Yea neither are dark or bright, but a good pcm dac should be a smidge more warm than a Sabre. Still I'm not sure what I want my self :[ I LOVE my 10ES2 and it literally kicked my oDac in the arse! [I listened to my M stage hooked up to both the oDac and NFB 10ES2 dac] So those EXTRA little details where awesome imo. Although I still have ONE headphone that likes a warmer amp/dac... 
 
Ethier way, I'd honestly go with the NFB 27, if you want the extra Lush of a PCM dac, get your self a Tube like the Lyr [maybe?] or something like the LD MK vi+

 

[bigfatpaulie]

Thanks Mshenay!
 
Let me give you some backgound on my end.  Right now I am running HD600's with a Crack+Speedball with an NFB12.1 as the DAC.  It's a great sounding system - don't get me wrong - but it's not really my sound.  I don't care for the bass on the HD600's.  I find it uncontrolled, and bloated.  I find the treble lacking in detail.  The whole system is warm, but slow and almost muddled.  I guess, it has the 

....
 
 
I've auditioned most of the flagships - T1, HE-6 + HE-500's, HD800, TH-900's and I really feel in love with the HD800's.  I'm on the journey (as many have been before) on the right amp + dac combo for me for the HD800's.  I am looking for an end game setup.