[Pietrone]

Hi! everybody!
I am looking for a great pair of cans for headphones.
I want to be slapped in the face when prayer poisition by periphery start and still I want clearity in complex passages full of instruments like haken's songs and I also want to enjoy orchestral, calmer, full of details songs.

I want headphones good with the gritness of low-tuned guitars and growls, but that delivers outstanding performances wit electornic, prog, and jazz anyway. I like neutralish headphones.

I have an audient id4, I could spend some money for an amp if needed.

Budget is below 1500, possibly not going in the realm of "more money means no important marginal gain in value".

As far as I understood, hd650 might do trick, what else do you think is good for me? Apparently focal do not have enough bass, and alternatives are above my budget. Also, do you know monolith monoprice 1060? how's that?

thank you all

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I feel like I want something more than the m40x. They are clear, but they sound little and not really powerful.

What exactly do you mean here?

Because "powerful sound" in terms of headphones or speakers can mean how the dynamic and loud the sound is, which depending on the perception of the listener, the deficiency for which can be due to a mismatch of sensitivity (and impedance) to power output (at that load impedance, and also distortion due to a mismatch to the output impedance) or outright response ie having the upper bass boosted to emphasize the beat which can both be a result of and also be 'remedied' by an impedance mismatch, or in the case of Grados, they really just have more of that boost but it's also coupled with very high sensitivity at low impedance.

Also by "little" do you mean the soundstage is a narrow and lacks depth? Just be aware that
1. Sometimes what some consider as "wide" is just overly emphasized treble that images the cymbals and ang guitars far out to the flanks disproportionate even to each other
2. Depth is very difficult to achieve in headphones. A combination of really good imaging and angled pads or driver mounts helps the AKG K70x and Sennheiser HD800 here, but can get a bit deeper with Crossfeed. Crossfeed though doesn't guarantee the same percentage improvement in anything else in terms of absolute depth, but in some cases can make everything proportional in distance. Either way, Crossfeed makes the whole soundstage seem 'narrower' as well but what it's doing is pushing the cymbals towards the center where they would actually be on an actual stage ie the drummer doesn't have 3m long arms.

Open/closed cans
First of all, I have no idea about which kind of headphone I should look at. I already have some closed cans, so would explore open cans, but someone told me they lack bass.

They don't really "lack" bass in the sense that if you measured them in a lab environment open headphones don't have that much less bass across the board. It's more of if you measured all the closed backs and got a result that suggests such the thing is it's not so much that the open backs lack bass but more of how the closed back headphones include headphones specifically designed to produce far more bass than is natural, like mass market headphones (Beats for example). And many closed back monitoring headphones would have measurements that are more in line with open back reference headphones - the difference here is that the closed backs get used by the artist singing into a mic if they haven't started using in-ear monitors yet while the open back reference headphones are what the engineer and artist will likely check the mix with along with speakers.

And even if you go by ear instead of lab measurements and find they really do lack bass, remember that again
1. The closed back headphone samples may be mostly geared towards producing more bass to begin with
2. If anything the closed backs will trap soundwaves coming off the back of the diaphragm, which, if it doesn't cause cancellation or damping issues, is due to using a driver that has T/S parameters designed to work in a closed enclosure (this is why you also can't just cover an open headphone or drill out a closed headphone), while also blocking a little bit more ambient noise whereas
3. ...the open back headphones will not even try to block out ambient noise. Basically, in a very quiet room, as long as the open back headphone isn't something that has a response that really nosedives before it hits 20hz and you also manage your expectations - headphones can't kick you in the chest the way speakers like the Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage will because you can't just override physics, ie two towers with two 250mm drivers each at 3m away will kick your chest in a way that a 40mm driver right by your ears never will - the open back headphone would still have enough usable bass.

I listen to metal, djent, progressive, and also heavy electronic. I dont listen only this kind of music, I don’t like overemphasis on bass, but a satisfying bass and guitar tone is required.

I've been using a Sennheiser HD600 to listen to Nightwish, Kamelot, Dream Theater, etc for over a decade now.

Driveability
This applies both to closed or open cans, would I need a dedicated device to listen to new pair of camps? I don’t want It to substitute my AK in anyway, it should only enable me to completely enjoy the new headphones and possibly add value.
Again, buying a desktop amp would mean the new headphone are dedicated to home listening, and that is fine.

Check your AK if it has a line out mode so you're sure it'll feed a fixed ~2V line signal to the amplifier. If it does then you can use that as a music server.

Due to Android USB Audio issues this year I've moved on to using a Hidizs AP80. It's set to Line Out so it fixes the output to what a line output should be (~2V) and then to handle ergos I just set it beside the amplifier and then control the AP80's playback using my smartphone (volume control though is still on the amplifier).

Questions for you
1. Should I look for a pair of closed back or open back? Which kind of headphone and why?

That depends on you really.

I don't listen with my open backs earlier than 9pm that way there's not much noise coming through the window. Unless I run the A/C, where the noise is at least a constant hum after I get the room cooled down in the first 15mins of it running full blast with an industrial fan sucking in the A/C's output and throwing the cold air all over the room.

2. Given that I am willing to spend in order to get as much as quality as possible, without stepping in the zone where more money means meaningless added marginal value, which headphone should I look for?

3. If the can you are suggesting me needs an amp, which one and why you suggest?

Well I was listening to Kamelot using my Sennheiser HD600, Meier Cantate.2, and Hidizs AP80 last night.

You could look into an HD58X and Meier Jazz FF, maybe a DAC with SPDIF inputs if your AK has digital outputs and you're fine with not using the AK's built in DAC (assuming it has no line out; otherwise, just us the AK).

If the cans you are suggesting are easy to drive and can be driven by a phone, would suggest an amp anyway, and if yes, which one and why?

Maybe try a Grado RS2x and even a portable amp will work with that.

Problem is if you don't like it and you want to try something else the portable amp might not be enough for that one.

 

[Pietrone]

Hi, I fixed my text, maybe now it is easier to help me ))

 

[Pietrone]

I've been using a Sennheiser HD600 to listen to Nightwish, Kamelot, Dream Theater, etc for over a decade now.

So, I narrowed my possibilities on hd660 ( I need to understand if there are any differencies with the hd660s) or the sundara, or at max some beyerdynamic. If possible I would probably buy campfire cascade or some focal, but cascade is not to be found in EU and the latter are out of my budget.

The hd660 seems to have more bass then the rest of 6line but not too much, which i might enjoy. Plus they are iconic, long-lasting and should be comfortbale to wear. the hd6 line is what i was aiming at before learning about good headphones. I really like the aesthetics too.

Sundara seems to be generally better, the only concern people bring up is that they can sound "digital/metallic", but I guess it is because of the planar magnet. I feel a different texture on my p1, but it is really enjoyable. I dont know if I want it again on my bigger cans. What really sets me off about sundara is the build quality, the customer service and the round form, which looks uglier and less comfortable to me.

About openness, I am also understanding that closed headphones feel more intimate, while open cans are more accurate, but if they still can punch it is super fine.
What do you think of hd660 or sundara? Did you ever tried them?

 

[GREQ]

Apparently focal do not have enough bass, and alternatives are above my budget.

Focal Clear and Clear MG are both very bassy for open-back headphones... maybe the bassiest open-backs I've ever heard.
I think these would both work well for metal.
I auditioned the Clear a while ago, but I just heard the Clear MG for the first time this week and found it very enjoyable.

I want headphones good with the gritness of low-tuned guitars and growls, but that delivers outstanding performances wit electornic, prog, and jazz anyway. I like neutralish headphones.

Sounds like you need to acquire a 2nd-hand Hifiman HE-500.
It's basically neutral with a very slight v-shape to the sound and bloody agressive and detailed across the whole frequency response.
So it should be better than the Focals if you prefer sound closer to neutral.

I don't think Sennheisers are a good choice for metal.
I just did a little A/B test between my HE-500 and HD650 listening to Igorrr - Humous and Mick Gordon - BFG Division, and HD650 just sounds too relaxed and calm.... like I'm sitting further away from the music... and certainly not being 'slapped in the face'
Even on the bassier/warmer HD650, bass doesn't have enough rumble or slam. The mids are fantastic, but guitars don't 'scream'. It's a bit too 'pleasant'.

 

[damadaka]

Focal Clear and Clear MG are both very bassy for open-back headphones... maybe the bassiest open-backs I've ever heard.
I think these would both work well for metal.
I auditioned the Clear a while ago, but I just heard the Clear MG for the first time this week and found it very enjoyable.


Sounds like you need to acquire a 2nd-hand Hifiman HE-500.
It's basically neutral with a very slight v-shape to the sound and bloody agressive and detailed across the whole frequency response.
So it should be better than the Focals if you prefer sound closer to neutral.

I don't think Sennheisers are a good choice for metal.
I just did a little A/B test between my HE-500 and HD650 listening to Igorrr - Humous and Mick Gordon - BFG Division, and HD650 just sounds too relaxed and calm.... like I'm sitting further away from the music... and certainly not being 'slapped in the face'
Even on the bassier/warmer HD650, bass doesn't have enough rumble or slam. The mids are fantastic, but guitars don't 'scream'. It's a bit too 'pleasant'.

I second greq, the clear is a great choice

 

[MariusAB]

So, I narrowed my possibilities on hd660 ( I need to understand if there are any differencies with the hd660s) or the sundara, or at max some beyerdynamic. If possible I would probably buy campfire cascade or some focal, but cascade is not to be found in EU and the latter are out of my budget.

The hd660 seems to have more bass then the rest of 6line but not too much, which i might enjoy. Plus they are iconic, long-lasting and should be comfortbale to wear. the hd6 line is what i was aiming at before learning about good headphones. I really like the aesthetics too.

Sundara seems to be generally better, the only concern people bring up is that they can sound "digital/metallic", but I guess it is because of the planar magnet. I feel a different texture on my p1, but it is really enjoyable. I dont know if I want it again on my bigger cans. What really sets me off about sundara is the build quality, the customer service and the round form, which looks uglier and less comfortable to me.

About openness, I am also understanding that closed headphones feel more intimate, while open cans are more accurate, but if they still can punch it is super fine.
What do you think of hd660 or sundara? Did you ever tried them?

Now days sundara is practically dont have quality problems so this you can eliminate as a problem. But they needs eq a few db in low bass then they are really good at anything and metal genre also. This bass boost gives them needed more body for metal to have more pleasure from such music. But their bass is good and is fast, puchy, not bloaty and good separated and also other thing in sundara like mids and nice treble give you good combo what metal needs. And better than senheiser 6 series for metal IMO.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So, I narrowed my possibilities on hd660 ( I need to understand if there are any differencies with the hd660s)...
---
The hd660 seems to have more bass then the rest of 6line but not too much, which i might enjoy. Plus they are iconic, long-lasting and should be comfortbale to wear. the hd6 line is what i was aiming at before learning about good headphones. I really like the aesthetics too.

Do you mean deficiencies? If so...relatively narrow soundstage on the HD660S.

Also the amp choice wouldn't line up as well with what gets recommended for the HD600/650/6XX since the impedance is halved for the new headphones. A very powerful OTL still works, you get more power out of transformer-coupled amps and solid state vs the 300ohm cans; but the real problem is you could potentially get a lot of distortion with an OTL amp due to the impedance being that much lower.

As long as you don't expect miracles about the soundstage size and just focus on proportional distance (what some people think is a "wide" soundstage is actually just disproportionally located cymbals and guitars).

...or the sundara...

---

Sundara seems to be generally better, the only concern people bring up is that they can sound "digital/metallic", but I guess it is because of the planar magnet. I feel a different texture on my p1, but it is really enjoyable. I dont know if I want it again on my bigger cans. What really sets me off about sundara is the build quality, the customer service and the round form, which looks uglier and less comfortable to me.

Objective measurements, you can make an argument that they're better than the HD660S from 1000hz to 20hz. Above that...not so much.

Bass is as flat as it gets but the entire 800hz to 20hz range is weaker than 1000hz and then there's a drop at 2000hz and then rises up above where 1000hz is from around 3000hz to 9000hz. Overall balance especially when there's enough ambient noise (like from not buying a MonsterLabo case if you're using a gaming computer as source) can sound thin, though it won't necessarily sound shrill.

About openness, I am also understanding that closed headphones feel more intimate, while open cans are more accurate...

Not exactly.

HD6xx line is intimate.

Some open cans like Grados get described as having "wide soundstage," but if you actually think about how they're imaging the sound, Reed Richards is on the drums showing off with cymbals out to the flanks.

Shuma Gorath also works...

Not much depth either, and beyond being non-existent, can be worse and actually sound like it's reversed with the bass drum on some models sounding like they're too far ahead by the vocalist's feet.

And then when something like the K702 improves on the K701's relatively early bass roll off but without giving up imaging, people still think that depth makes the bass weak...instead of lowering ambient noise so they can hear what is being imaged farther out from them. Or even if they could hear it and not think it weak, they still think that headphone sounds weird, because that's not what headphones are supposed to sound like, or something (it should be noted that most of them don't have speaker systems either so...). Ditto the HD800.

What do you think of hd660 or sundara? Did you ever tried them?

Tried HD650 vs HE400i.

HD650 gives you more options for amplification since you can use OTL amps and get very low noise for not a lot of money, and hear more of the already louder low end.

HE400i when you factor in several things its response and then if you've got it with say an O2 and you're sitting next to a computer that actually runs fans fast enough it'll obscure what bass there is. In a very quiet room (ie don't use a powerful computer as a music server, keep windows closed, no A/C running, etc) you'll get to appreciate the flatter bass response.

 

[Pietrone]

I am pretty much lost at this point.

I second greq, the clear is a great choice

Unfortunately clears are way out of my budget. I saw on amazon the elex (or elegia?) below 500€ the day I started searching and now nothing's there.

Now days sundara is practically dont have quality problems so this you can eliminate as a problem. But they needs eq a few db in low bass then they are really good at anything and metal genre also. This bass boost gives them needed more body for metal to have more pleasure from such music. But their bass is good and is fast, puchy, not bloaty and good separated and also other thing in sundara like mids and nice treble give you good combo what metal needs. And better than senheiser 6 series for metal IMO.

It is easy for me to bu some sundara, but how do I know if it is the last version? How should I drive them? Is it a comfortable headphone?

Do you mean deficiencies? If so...relatively narrow soundstage on the HD660S.

I meant "buying options" but I am still open to suggestions

Tried HD650 vs HE400i.

HD650 gives you more options for amplification since you can use OTL amps and get very low noise for not a lot of money, and hear more of the already louder low end.

HE400i when you factor in several things its response and then if you've got it with say an O2 and you're sitting next to a computer that actually runs fans fast enough it'll obscure what bass there is. In a very quiet room (ie don't use a powerful computer as a music server, keep windows closed, no A/C running, etc) you'll get to appreciate the flatter bass response.

I will use the new headphones on a laptop, generally while working (reading or writing mostly), fan should not be to much of an issue but yes, some times they can be loud, not too much tho. I dont really know if it could affect the audio.

Maybe I should look for closed cans, what cans are a worthy upgrade from the m40x, that I am liking overall?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I will use the new headphones on a laptop, generally while working (reading or writing mostly), fan should not be to much of an issue but yes, some times they can be loud, not too much tho. I dont really know if it could affect the audio.

Maybe I should look for closed cans, what cans are a worthy upgrade from the m40x, that I am liking overall?

If electronic noise, it won't matter if it's open back or not. Generally though laptops are more likely to have a lower risk of that vs desktop computers since you can just unplug it and 99% of the time any noise caused by the computer will go away.

As for the fan, unless the ambient temp is too hot or your work requires loading the CPU or GPU, it shouldn't be audible until the thermal paste dries out.

 

[Pietrone]

If electronic noise, it won't matter if it's open back or not. Generally though laptops are more likely to have a lower risk of that vs desktop computers since you can just unplug it and 99% of the time any noise caused by the computer will go away.

As for the fan, unless the ambient temp is too hot or your work requires loading the CPU or GPU, it shouldn't be audible until the thermal paste dries out.

The electric noise can be an issue also if using an external dac? I have never experienced such noise until now.

Okay I am thinking of paying custom fees and buying on massdrop, what do you think shuuld I do on that market, now that my budget can buy so much more?

 

[zomkung]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/headphones-for-metal-music-ultimate-solution.715478/

 

[Pietrone]

Okay, today I tried hd660s, hd800, some closed denon and the LCD 2.

I really did not like the LCD and denon. HD800 were super shiny but still i preferirei the more humble 660s.

Yes they lack some lower end grit but overall they are super super pleasant. The comfort too is outstanding.

However, now I am back to my 24bit files on the Astell & Kern dap and ath m40x and they are way more satisfying.

I don't know if the gap has to be filled by the difference in files and dac. The amp used in the shop with the hd660s was more powerful but I have no idea about the files. It was on an app called "sonus", I think I was listening on tidal but I could not see if it was master quality or what.

Although the hd660s was super pleasant and easy to listen to, instrument separation was bad, and sound-wise and analitically that wouldn't really be an upgrade from my current athletes m40x setup.

Again, I don't know if it is due to the quality of files used in the shop.


I don't feel like that the hd660s is worth the money for their technical performance, do you think it was because of the setup used? Other then the money, I would probably love to have them in my arsenal, but definition wise this ath m40x are giving me way more than how much the 660s were giving.

It's strange, I'd like to understand if it was due to the source used, which I cannot compare

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The electric noise can be an issue also if using an external dac? I have never experienced such noise until now.

There is noise in terms of ambient noise. An open headphone will let more of that in, ie, the noise in the room you're in or whatever other environment.

Electronic noise is also a thing, if you get that it will not matter if your headphones are closed or not. Since you are using a laptop, then it's a lot less of a problem than a desktop system. However do not assume you will never encounter this with any laptop or any other source.

One way to test: hit pause on your music player app, then start moving the volume knob. At minimum you need to get well past the position of the knob where it would usually be if you're listening; if you can max it out without hearing any electronic noise, your system's noise is beyond audibility in all conditions (barring, say, too high sensitivity, too low impedance drivers).

Oh and electronic noise can also come from vacuum tubes, whether it's an issue with the amp design or vibrations (like soundwaves; a bigger problem with speaker systems) going through the tube. The latter at least can be remedied by physically dampening the tubes.

Okay I am thinking of paying custom fees and buying on massdrop, what do you think shuuld I do on that market, now that my budget can buy so much more?

How much more? Because you could get the Focal Elex. Or at least that's what I would get.

However if prefer a more pronounced low end, the HD6XX is a safer bet.

 

[pbui44]

From the chart that @zomkung posted and what you already have and want, I would get this (unless you like symphony metal, which is average on the chart):

https://kennerton.org/shop/vali-neoteric-dusk/

If you get this, then also get the 2.5mm-trrs-balanced cable for it as well:

https://www.lavricables.com/cables/ultimate-silver-kennerton-vali-odin-upgrade-cable/