[cel4145]

So, have you blind AB compared DACs? I have and the differences I've observed in the real world is sufficient on the face.

You forgot to mention "properly volume leveled."

Most DAC units tend to differ from each other slightly in voltage output. So two DACs which should sound the same, will sound different if simply switched back and forth between a headphone amp, if they haven't been volume leveled.

 

[cel4145]

I’d love to get recommendations on a DAC/AMP to pair with the XS.

I had bought a used JDS Labs Atom+ Stack for $140 because I saw a few comments indicating it worked ok with the XS.

I’m fairly new to all of this so I wasn’t really able to perceive that the Atom+ Stack was underpowered for what the XS needs.

However I’ve recently learned in another thread that it isn’t providing enough power and that I should be looking for something more powerful to get the full benefits of the XS.

Unless Hifiman is grossly exaggerating how sensitive they are, that is nonsense. The Atom will easily power them louder than you will want to listen.

 

[jasswolf]

All a DAC does is convert a digital signal to analog. It's really basic and this isn't even an interesting problem for me.

Can respect that you don't want to go any further on this, but it's staggering that you think there is only one or a small number of ways to do this mathematically in both fundamental algorithms and constraints, and in terms of how this is accelerated and implemented in a chip design.

I don't agree on your comparison to a video monitor because it frankly is not on the same level. What do we measure monitors by? Resolution and color spectrum which are all very measurable and replicated with consistent results.

In audio there's no number standard to define a Soundstage, or the variability in speed and decay of notes. You can't assign a label to imaging quality or detail retrieval. We compare all headphones, amps, and DACs to each other in order to gauge just how it all sounds. And with that we can use a frequency response along with some words to give an idea, however, people can still interpret things differently.

With a 1080p image we all see the same thing. With the Edition XS we may perceive it differently. And if it weren't for that we wouldn't have DACs or Amps that create a different sound profile. As someone pointed out, DACs don't measure differently. Well how strange that there are hundreds on the market and yet people tend to enjoy the sound profile of one over the other. Paying hundreds of dollars more to get the next best thing.

If it was just numbers then we wouldn't have these issues. You have different components and construction of these devices for a reason, they create an intended result. It's not an error it's by design

In fact, until the end of 2020, monitor response time was not being very correctly measured and was missing key issues with certain types of LCD technology, as well as being far too uncoupled from how human vision works.

Furthermore, beyond varying degrees of blindness and colour blindness, people can see things quite differently: tetrachromats exist within humanity to an extent, and then there's issues with focal distance, astigmatisms, etc.

We're talking physics and the brain in either case, so perception can be altered by the environment (both internal and external to the body), the means through which we take that in, and how the brain and CNS interprets that.

 

[zadillo]

Unless Hifiman is grossly exaggerating how sensitive they are, that is nonsense. The Atom will easily power them louder than you will want to listen.

In another forum I was told that the Atom Amp+ was running 1w at 32 Ohms and that I needed to look for something giving at least 2 to 2.5w at 16 Ohms

I got the impression the issue wasn’t so much volume (which is fine to me even at low gain) but that I wouldn’t be getting the full capacities re: soundstage, imaging, etc at the power the Atom is driving

This is all pretty new to me though so it’s hard to read judge (and I’ve never listened to higher end equipment before so I don’t have a baseline to judge - from my perspective the XS and Atom stack is better than anything I’ve heard before, but I don’t want to miss out if they could sound even better

 

[cycloverid]

In another forum I was told that the Atom Amp+ was running 1w at 32 Ohms and that I needed to look for something giving at least 2 to 2.5w at 16 Ohms

I got the impression the issue wasn’t so much volume (which is fine to me even at low gain) but that I wouldn’t be getting the full capacities re: soundstage, imaging, etc at the power the Atom is driving

This is all pretty new to me though so it’s hard to read judge (and I’ve never listened to higher end equipment before so I don’t have a baseline to judge - from my perspective the XS and Atom stack is better than anything I’ve heard before, but I don’t want to miss out if they could sound even better

I'm also using the JDS Atom stack with the XS and my assessment is that you're getting 99% of the performance out of these by the numbers. This is the objective answer, and I also haven't tried out a bunch of expensive amp/dacs. We've actually been discussing this very subject in this thread, so feel free to look back at the last few pages and select which type of response you think will be most correct for you.

@jasswolf The monitor in your analogy would be like talking about the headphone in this tech chain. I expect monitors and headphones to both get better in the future. The DAC in particular is the video playback software part of this analogy. When was the last time you even thought about this? DACs/Amps both are pretty quickly going extinct as devices get more and more efficient (my prediction is that Hifiman will be very nearly if not fully wireless in less than a decade). There will probably be many grognards here still talking about external devices, but most will have moved on to the better wireless future.

 

[Xerosnake90]

In another forum I was told that the Atom Amp+ was running 1w at 32 Ohms and that I needed to look for something giving at least 2 to 2.5w at 16 Ohms

I got the impression the issue wasn’t so much volume (which is fine to me even at low gain) but that I wouldn’t be getting the full capacities re: soundstage, imaging, etc at the power the Atom is driving

This is all pretty new to me though so it’s hard to read judge (and I’ve never listened to higher end equipment before so I don’t have a baseline to judge - from my perspective the XS and Atom stack is better than anything I’ve heard before, but I don’t want to miss out if they could sound even better

I'm the one who just told you that lol. You're going to hear conflicting information usually backed by "did you listen at the same volume level" and "If it's loud enough then you get all the performance you need"

You're welcome to stop by my place and demo the differences between my amps. If you hear no difference between the Hel 2 and the Jotunheim then I'll let you have the Hel 2 free of charge and you can enjoy it all you want.

 

[zadillo]

I'm the one who just told you that lol. You're going to hear conflicting information usually backed by "did you listen at the same volume level" and "If it's loud enough then you get all the performance you need"

You're welcome to stop by my place and demo the differences between my amps. If you hear no difference between the Hel 2 and the Jotunheim then I'll let you have the Hel 2 free of charge and you can enjoy it all you want. I live in Las Vegas, let me know

Hah, I appreciate the offer - I’m in Portland but would almost be worth the trip to Vegas before spending hundreds more

 

[Silver Wolf]

I think the point some are trying to convey isn't so much that they will sound bad/crap or that you "need" to have X etc but that once you get pass the objective side of things the subjective side is in these headphones can scale or if you like reveal. If you already have something or have bought something I wouldn't get stressed out and I'd have a listen first before making any hard/fast choices . Use people's opinion/s as a guide with the subjective side of things as everything will differ to some point among most of us and the true expert to tell you in the end what you enjoy most is you.

I think of headphones that scale as a benefit and the best type, if your happy with them at first then no need to go further....But if bitten by the bug they may scale to some point and grow with you and may give you different experiences with varying equipment that you may or for that matter may not enjoy...

 

[jasswolf]

This is the objective answer, and I also haven't tried out a bunch of expensive amp/dacs.

The sheer arrogance of this statement... equipment will continue to scale, but there are reasonable break points well before then, just above where you're drawing the line and the reasons why you're drawing the line don't add up to the core theoretical science you're claiming to purport.

@jasswolf The monitor in your analogy would be like talking about the headphone in this tech chain. I expect monitors and headphones to both get better in the future. The DAC in particular is the video playback software part of this analogy. When was the last time you even thought about this? DACs/Amps both are pretty quickly going extinct as devices get more and more efficient (my prediction is that Hifiman will be very nearly if not fully wireless in less than a decade). There will probably be many grognards here still talking about external devices, but most will have moved on to the better wireless future.

As a point of fact no, the monitor is more than what the headphone provides as light can travel in a vacuum. Thus the environment is entirely a hinderance to operation of the monitor, where as an audio device may be enhanced by it.

Wireless tech still needs both a DAC and an amp... the only way around that is a digital speaker driver, but that's currently impractical. Even the best prototype technology that I'm aware of would barely be usable for headphone technology, and that's before considering how to deliver something that's spatially appropriate to be placed next to a human ear.

Why? Because the number of small drivers required goes up exponentially with each additional step in bit depth. 8 bits would be 2^8-1 = 255 drivers per speaker, while 2^16-1 = 65,535 drivers. So you're looking at 50-60 sqcm per driver to get the bare minimum standard for hi-fi, and then you have to configure that so when it fires for certain frequencies and levels, it doesn't deliver sound only down the bottom of the driver, etc.

It's very clear that you're not thinking about any of this at all really, and you've either misjudged what your sources are presenting, or whether they're good sources of information at all.

 

[cycloverid]

The sheer arrogance of this statement... equipment will continue to scale, but there are reasonable break points well before then, just above where you're drawing the line and the reasons why you're drawing the line don't add up to the core theoretical science you're claiming to purport.


As a point of fact no, the monitor is more than what the headphone provides as light can travel in a vacuum. Thus the environment is entirely a hinderance to operation of the monitor, where as an audio device may be enhanced by it.

Wireless tech still needs both a DAC and an amp... the only way around that is a digital speaker driver, but that's currently impractical. Even the best prototype technology that I'm aware of would barely be usable for headphone technology, and that's before considering how to deliver something that's spatially appropriate to be placed next to a human ear.

Why? Because the number of small drivers required goes up exponentially with each additional step in bit depth. 8 bits would be 2^8-1 = 255 drivers per speaker, while 2^16-1 = 65,535 drivers. So you're looking at 50-60 sqcm per driver to get the bare minimum standard for hi-fi, and then you have to configure that so when it fires for certain frequencies and levels, it doesn't deliver sound only down the bottom of the driver, etc.

It's very clear that you're not thinking about any of this at all really, and you've either misjudged what your sources are presenting, or whether they're good sources of information at all.

It feels like you've badly misunderstood my points, so let me try to clear this up. Maybe some of this was me typing too fast and not being careful enough with wording

The concept of device 'scaling' is a subjective phenomenon, there is no concrete evidence to support this. Therefore I'm using the objective argument, which was my meaning with the first statement. I'm open to change my view if the objective evidence supports this idea in the future. As of now, the measurements do not bear this out. The JDS Atom stack is way overkill by all metrics that we can measure and understand relative to the specs of the Edition XS.

Clearly amp/dac technology will remain relevant to driving wireless headphones, but will be miniaturized and within the device. So my meaning, which I felt was obvious but perhaps slightly misspoken, is that the process of the consumer selecting amp/dac external pairings will inevitably be viewed as unnecessary even by most audiophiles(my prediction).

A headphone and monitor are both simply output devices, hence the analogy. They both clearly have different limitations.

 

[Kammerat Rebekka]

Should one trust people who always do sighted testings because reviewers are able to look past their own biases?
No.
Human beings are VERY easy to fool - especially when it comes to our ears.
Yet in this hobby we’re bombarded with peeps who are more precise than the best measuring tools out there…and if science somehow gets a mention…it’s never really about the science of sound pertaining to human ears.

That’s also why this thread has been so wild up until now; peeps trying it on and realising it sounds very very close (or indeed identical) to a number of other eggshaped Hifimans…cans that are way more expensive.
This does not follow the audiophile rulebook ie the mo money the better sound quality….which is the ever chanting mantra round these parts…and also why people keep believing in nonsensical things like “upgrading the dac” when there is nothing to upgrade to in the first place.
…unless you guys know of a place where we all can undergo an upgrade so as we can hear this stuff.
Oh yes..that’s right: we don’t even have studio mics that pick up anything in these extreme frequencies let alone instruments that make noises there.

Back to Hifiman’s recent eggroll: I can dig it. I really applaud them releasing a cheaper option. They are still diluting their own stable but I guess they know what they’re doing(?).

 

[jasswolf]

The concept of device 'scaling' is a subjective phenomenon, there is no concrete evidence to support this.

There is plenty of evidence to support this from an engineering and physics perspective, at least to a point well above the $100 mark. The subjective aspects relate to whether that improvement is noted and preferred by an individual in a given moment for the given spend.

You're walking around telling everyone you've not even compared this, putting it all down to THD based on graphs other people told you were solid.

Please, just stop. You're acting like you have a compulsion with respect to this, and you're taking people along for the ride.

 

[SirIppo]

Anyone hear anything rattling in one of your earcups? When I unplug the left cable from the earcup I don't hear anything rattling. When I have the cable plugged in it sounds like something is loose or shaking around in there when i move my head.

 

[bagwell359]

Should one trust people who always do sighted testings because reviewers are able to look past their own biases?
No.
Human beings are VERY easy to fool - especially when it comes to our ears.
Yet in this hobby we’re bombarded with peeps who are more precise than the best measuring tools out there…and if science somehow gets a mention…it’s never really about the science of sound pertaining to human ears.

That’s also why this thread has been so wild up until now; peeps trying it on and realising it sounds very very close (or indeed identical) to a number of other eggshaped Hifimans…cans that are way more expensive.
This does not follow the audiophile rulebook ie the mo money the better sound quality….which is the ever chanting mantra round these parts…and also why people keep believing in nonsensical things like “upgrading the dac” when there is nothing to upgrade to in the first place.
…unless you guys know of a place where we all can undergo an upgrade so as we can hear this stuff.
Oh yes..that’s right: we don’t even have studio mics that pick up anything in these extreme frequencies let alone instruments that make noises there.

Back to Hifiman’s recent eggroll: I can dig it. I really applaud them releasing a cheaper option. They are still diluting their own stable but I guess they know what they’re doing(?).

Nobody with eyes and a brain could fail to see all the snake oil in audio. From the gross like slicing woofers with knives so the LG Advent would sound like crap next to the ESS Heil to subtle like stroking and alternately challenging buyers ego to induce them into a cycle of continual updates. Then of course there is self delusion, and lack of experience with how instruments sound in your favored recordings. Then there is self induced issues - like having a stack of equipment topped with a 65" monitor between speakers that throw a fine soundstage (without the crap of course).
With that and reems more being objective is a good plan. The difference is the folks on "science" always assume everything is a scam. My take is I don't know beforehand and I'm free to decide each case and not waste time protecting an "ism" and my ego.

Blind AB test the MB DAC in the Lyr3 vs the MB Gungnir v1 going thru a Lyr3 - no need for an ABX test, differences clear assuming CD or better quality from a good recording.

Done - PM anymore discussions.

 

[audiocroissant]

In another forum I was told that the Atom Amp+ was running 1w at 32 Ohms and that I needed to look for something giving at least 2 to 2.5w at 16 Ohms

I got the impression the issue wasn’t so much volume (which is fine to me even at low gain) but that I wouldn’t be getting the full capacities re: soundstage, imaging, etc at the power the Atom is driving

This is all pretty new to me though so it’s hard to read judge (and I’ve never listened to higher end equipment before so I don’t have a baseline to judge - from my perspective the XS and Atom stack is better than anything I’ve heard before, but I don’t want to miss out if they could sound even better

My advice is to try things for yourself, if you can. There are excellent return policies out there. The zeolotry in one direction or another smacks of attempts of feeling better about one's choices, not pursuit of truth. How can there be objective truth about something as subjective as perception of sound, even if that comes from psychology to a large extent? I can't tell you if you will hear a difference as I have heard people swear to completely and diametrically opposed positions.

Is the cost of a DCS Bartok justified for example? I guess it is, as long as one is willing to pay for it but I suspect the dynamics at play are comparable to owning a Rolex. It is not about the function anymore but about the pride and satisfaction that one could derive from owning something as shiny and desired. As it relates to sound and audio, maybe that, with different hints of sound colorations, is enough for someone to subscribe and asjust to that "elite", slightly different, rather than necessarily improved, sound. The fact that this may be psychological to a large extent doesn't make it less real for the individual. Who knows, you may be or end up being in that camp and derive a lot of pleasure from it, so who am I or anyone else here to claim I have the objective truth of what you will end up experiencing.