[bigshot]

You use headphones at home if there are people that complain about your music.

 

[castleofargh]

You mean like you just totally ignoring that BA's are much stiffer to any DD diaphragm wise?. A year in this so called objectivist forum still mad about the ER4SR outperforming other gear with driver tech that many here blindly call junk. But when Custom Art blind tested a few reviewers with their new CIEM by not saying what drivers It used. They all got mad when they gave a Single BA CIEM 4.8/5 for bass performance, So don't act shocked if I'm just going to treat replies like this as mild trolling.

I'm not suggesting to ignore anything. The opposite is what made me post a troll response. Because taking 2 vastly different cases with nothing in common, and pretending they show causality for 2 cherry picked variables, was so wrong that I did find it funny.

Many in this subforum call the ER4SR driver, junk? where? I'm probably the one being most unkind to BAs in here, and no luck for you, the ER4SR is the IEM I use the most(almost daily).

So a single BA can have pleasing bass. That's the revelation you got from Custom Art's little challenge? No danger of me acting shocked there, as I fully expect FR to be the main variable to determine how listeners rank IEMs in a blind test.

Since It weird how you lot say everyone has a subjective taste when DD performance is questioned. But when the ER4SR with 6db bass boost is given 5/5 suddenly everyone too quick to trip over each other to go "Well actually it a 1.2/5 cause screw you!". The same people who are suddenly claiming planar/electrostatic are endgame for their driver bass speed & overall detail which BA's already do?. lol

I don't know who's supposed to be concerned by that. I don't remember any topic discussing that or giving ratings like that in this sub section of the forum. Are you sure you have the right "you lot"?

Like who cares about OE vs IEM?, The HD600 needs a 9db boost under 70Hz to match a stock ER4SR with a full seal anyways it distorts if force a 9db boost. No idea why you brought that up...

I did not, you did.

DD's Attack & decay are usually quite poor. In hybrids the DD woofer the longer time to reproduce a note can cause smearing since the diaphragm can't rest quick enough. In Single DD headphones it causes audible distortion from micro deformations when the driver tries too hard to reproduce within a short time frame near the centre. In BA IEM's like the ER4XR that never happens because the diaphragm stiff enough to rest very quick meaning if a song has long loud bass note the ER4 will be more realistic.

Example go play Grindcore bands like agoraphobic nosebleed - Altered States of America. On DD headphones the Drums & bass don't sound like actual instruments just distorted and messy to the point that the bassist is lost. On the ER4XR/W40 that doesn't happen you get the same quantity, but the bass detail is 20 times higher you can make out the bassist & Drums.

On slower bands like Sunn O))) if you listen carefully on DD headphones you can hear the guitars are fatter than normal giving the false impression there is more bass. But when I switch to my ER3XR's you can hear missing textures/details giving the impression there less bass, The DD is producing a lot of 2nd order distortion trying cope with loud bass note.

...I was meaning DD diaphragms ring like a loose drum when told to reproduce bass rich music, BA drivers use a stiff metal foil & planar/Estat move the whole diaphragm surface to overcome excursion limits which in turn stops the ringing that DD's suffer from. I've said this like 8 times It weird how I seem to have to repeat myself like as if I'm a school teacher.

Maybe start judging stuff within similar scales and make comparisons that are realistic? DD diaphragms clearly ring more when they're bigger, heavier and travel more distance pushing a way bigger volume of air. But do you know for a fact that at equivalent scale and use conditions, it would still be a significant difference compared to BA in general? I do not.
And your habit of bringing planars in BA discussion is really puzzling. Is it some mentalist trick where I'll end up eating a light bulb without realizing you made me do it?

Within my own measurements, the tip I use on the IEM, or if I fix the IEM in place, will often play a bigger role on ringing/decay time, than DD or BA for relatively small drivers.
If we're playing the anecdote game, I have similar results as those:
https://www.stereophile.com/images/EtymoticER4SR.pdf
https://www.stereophile.com/images/DunuTitan1.pdf

The Titan1 has a 'not that small for IEM' DD, and the ER4SR is BA
Oh nooooes, it's the BA that's ringing more!!! The world will end, I guess.
The difference is so small anyway that it obviously doesn't matter. As I mentioned, by picking different tips or paying attention to secure the IEM, I can make either one become the "faster"/better damped one. Chances are that with anything equivalent, having a heavier IEM would play a bigger role than the type of driver as far as attack/decay/ringing are concerned.
Obviously those 2 in ears sound and feel very different. For one thing, the EX1/titan1 has holes all over. It doesn't go deep into the ear, FR is somewhat V shaped with very solid very hard to miss subs. I'm sure you'd feel a clear difference in whatever attack, texture. But like with most other IEMs, a great deal of it would come from the FR and the vented design, instead of how stiff the plate is on a BA.

Another even more annoying counter example to your black&white fake point of view. Ety vs Ety and my pairs have basically the same sensi, both were measured the same way, same day, at 90dB SPL@1kHz using the same tip(not same model, the actual same piece) and insertion as similar as I could manage(identical is just not possible for me with the triflange).

the MC5 has a little DD, so why can't I see the obvious Speedy Gonzalesness of the BA in the ER4?

And in term of distortions, both do better than the ER4SR. Not in a way that actually matters at my listening levels, but the measurable difference is very clear(including in the subs!). I still use the ER4 most of the time because the EX1 doesn't have proper isolation, and the MC5 is too big and the FR drops like a stone above 10kHz.

PS: At no point am I trying to argue that DD as a tech is faster than BA. I'm just pointing out that dumbing everything down is not how the real world works. You'll notice that the impulses show behaviors within the 1ms time frame. The differences in delay between 2 drivers being much smaller than that. And yet for some reason you'll have to explain to me one day, you want those tiny stuff be why you feel a certain way in the subs, the slowest frequencies in the entire audible range... the one range that needs about anything but speed.

the end

 

[bigshot]

The “other side” of Head-Fi spends a lot of its time talking about specific brands and models. They form fan clubs and vehemently argue in defense of the particular brand and model they happened to buy. Validation bias and bandwagon effect rule the roost. When they come in here, they expect that we speak the same language of alphabet soup model numbers and brand loyalty. I think it confuses them when we talk about how things work without using that to defend a particular piece of gear. They’re used to people defending their favored make and model by vomiting back cut and paste technical trivia from the brand’s tear sheets and advertising. When we clarify how things work, they read that as an attack on their specific favorite brands and go into defense mode.

We really are a whole different ilk around here in sound science.

 

[BobG55]

We really are a whole different ilk around here in sound science.

Well bigshot, judging by your avatar I’d say that’s an understatement.

 

[redrol]

the MC5 has a little DD, so why can't I see the obvious Speedy Gonzalesness of the BA in the ER4?

This information is golden! Thank you, im going to steal this.

 

[Blackwoof]

I'm not suggesting to ignore anything. The opposite is what made me post a troll response. Because taking 2 vastly different cases with nothing in common, and pretending they show causality for 2 cherry picked variables, was so wrong that I did find it funny.

Many in this subforum call the ER4SR driver, junk? where? I'm probably the one being most unkind to BAs in here, and no luck for you, the ER4SR is the IEM I use the most(almost daily).

So a single BA can have pleasing bass. That's the revelation you got from Custom Art's little challenge? No danger of me acting shocked there, as I fully expect FR to be the main variable to determine how listeners rank IEMs in a blind test.


I don't know who's supposed to be concerned by that. I don't remember any topic discussing that or giving ratings like that in this sub section of the forum. Are you sure you have the right "you lot"?



I did not, you did.





Maybe start judging stuff within similar scales and make comparisons that are realistic? DD diaphragms clearly ring more when they're bigger, heavier and travel more distance pushing a way bigger volume of air. But do you know for a fact that at equivalent scale and use conditions, it would still be a significant difference compared to BA in general? I do not.
And your habit of bringing planars in BA discussion is really puzzling. Is it some mentalist trick where I'll end up eating a light bulb without realizing you made me do it?

Within my own measurements, the tip I use on the IEM, or if I fix the IEM in place, will often play a bigger role on ringing/decay time, than DD or BA for relatively small drivers.
If we're playing the anecdote game, I have similar results as those:
https://www.stereophile.com/images/EtymoticER4SR.pdf
https://www.stereophile.com/images/DunuTitan1.pdf

The Titan1 has a 'not that small for IEM' DD, and the ER4SR is BA
Oh nooooes, it's the BA that's ringing more!!! The world will end, I guess.
The difference is so small anyway that it obviously doesn't matter. As I mentioned, by picking different tips or paying attention to secure the IEM, I can make either one become the "faster"/better damped one. Chances are that with anything equivalent, having a heavier IEM would play a bigger role than the type of driver as far as attack/decay/ringing are concerned.
Obviously those 2 in ears sound and feel very different. For one thing, the EX1/titan1 has holes all over. It doesn't go deep into the ear, FR is somewhat V shaped with very solid very hard to miss subs. I'm sure you'd feel a clear difference in whatever attack, texture. But like with most other IEMs, a great deal of it would come from the FR and the vented design, instead of how stiff the plate is on a BA.

Another even more annoying counter example to your black&white fake point of view. Ety vs Ety and my pairs have basically the same sensi, both were measured the same way, same day, at 90dB SPL@1kHz using the same tip(not same model, the actual same piece) and insertion as similar as I could manage(identical is just not possible for me with the triflange).

the MC5 has a little DD, so why can't I see the obvious Speedy Gonzalesness of the BA in the ER4?

And in term of distortions, both do better than the ER4SR. Not in a way that actually matters at my listening levels, but the measurable difference is very clear(including in the subs!). I still use the ER4 most of the time because the EX1 doesn't have proper isolation, and the MC5 is too big and the FR drops like a stone above 10kHz.

PS: At no point am I trying to argue that DD as a tech is faster than BA. I'm just pointing out that dumbing everything down is not how the real world works. You'll notice that the impulses show behaviors within the 1ms time frame. The differences in delay between 2 drivers being much smaller than that. And yet for some reason you'll have to explain to me one day, you want those tiny stuff be why you feel a certain way in the subs, the slowest frequencies in the entire audible range... the one range that needs about anything but speed.

the end

Are you having a meltdown or ignoring anything I say about how different drivers differ from each other?. Going ignore you posting a impose response since that ignores my core point THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT DIAPHRAGMS.

BA driver(ER4XR) = It uses a stiff metal foil with rubber surround being pulled by a rod. The ER4XR can only muster 4db from a vent cause the diaphragm is stiff, but It can still output +12db bass by using EQ/Filter. Its stiffness stops the area that makes the sound from micro deforming when doing both bass and mids/treble, BA woofers differ by having a slightly less stiff diaphragm.

Planar/electrostatic = They are pretty much a thin membrane sandwiched by two powerful magnets. Cause there no room to output bass by excursion like in BA/DD they move the whole membrane which is why they can act like micro woofers when EQ'd with a +8 ~ 20db sub bass boost.

Common DD 40mm(Senn HD650) = Not a really a cone like in Speaker drivers but a circle with thin PET with very little stiffness. Since the bass is done by the outer area and mids/treble at the centre this can cause issues when they are forced to excursion is beyond there stress limit like in the HD 600/650, The centre micro deforms from the driver trying very hard to output 6 ~ 10db wither from EQ or bassy recording.

Your argument implies that a Etymotic ER4SR with 7db bass boost like in the ER2XR will sound the same, When in reality the ER4SR will rest much quicker than the ER2XR making it less muddy in faster recording like in Grindcore, Power metal & Death metal, Hardcore techno. Did you just ignore 4 users crying at me for a month when I told them the ER4SR can do 10db through EQ and performs like a Planar despite being a Single BA IEM?.

And in term of distortions, both do better than the ER4SR. Not in a way that actually matters at my listening levels, but the measurable difference is very clear(including in the subs!). I still use the ER4 most of the time because the EX1 doesn't have proper isolation, and the MC5 is too big and the FR drops like a stone above 10kHz.

https://imgur.com/a/iERRCiM

Here a ER4SR I had that was <0.35% at 1KHz which is on par with the Sundara & LCDX. THD dosen't become a issue unless It reaches 2 ~ 3% at 1KHz. That almost distortion free.

https://imgur.com/a/qpzheQ5

Here a ER2XR at 104db it rates 2% from 20 ~ 1.1KHz higher than even most ER4XR/ER3XR's which average 0.79% at 1KHz.

 

[bigshot]

In my experience, it's how a particular material, technique or technology is applied that makes it better or worse, not the material, technique or technology itself. Whenever someone points to a specific make and model and starts quoting sales pitch off the tear sheet, I glaze over. I'm not a fanboy of any company for their raw materials or specific type of transducer. If I'm a fan, it's because of the way the whole design functions as a usable whole.

 

[castleofargh]

Are you having a meltdown or ignoring anything I say about how different drivers differ from each other?. Going ignore you posting a impose response since that ignores my core point THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT DIAPHRAGMS.

BA driver(ER4XR) = It uses a stiff metal foil with rubber surround being pulled by a rod. The ER4XR can only muster 4db from a vent cause the diaphragm is stiff, but It can still output +12db bass by using EQ/Filter. Its stiffness stops the area that makes the sound from micro deforming when doing both bass and mids/treble, BA woofers differ by having a slightly less stiff diaphragm.

Planar/electrostatic = They are pretty much a thin membrane sandwiched by two powerful magnets. Cause there no room to output bass by excursion like in BA/DD they move the whole membrane which is why they can act like micro woofers when EQ'd with a +8 ~ 20db sub bass boost.

Common DD 40mm(Senn HD650) = Not a really a cone like in Speaker drivers but a circle with thin PET with very little stiffness. Since the bass is done by the outer area and mids/treble at the centre this can cause issues when they are forced to excursion is beyond there stress limit like in the HD 600/650, The centre micro deforms from the driver trying very hard to output 6 ~ 10db wither from EQ or bassy recording.

Your argument implies that a Etymotic ER4SR with 7db bass boost like in the ER2XR will sound the same, When in reality the ER4SR will rest much quicker than the ER2XR making it less muddy in faster recording like in Grindcore, Power metal & Death metal, Hardcore techno. Did you just ignore 4 users crying at me for a month when I told them the ER4SR can do 10db through EQ and performs like a Planar despite being a Single BA IEM?.




https://imgur.com/a/iERRCiM

Here a ER4SR I had that was <0.35% at 1KHz which is on par with the Sundara & LCDX. THD dosen't become a issue unless It reaches 2 ~ 3% at 1KHz. That almost distortion free.

https://imgur.com/a/qpzheQ5

Here a ER2XR at 104db it rates 2% from 20 ~ 1.1KHz higher than even most ER4XR/ER3XR's which average 0.79% at 1KHz.

That you'd do a comparison between the Ety number(measured at 100dB@1Khz on my certificate) and a measurement from @earfonia on a different rig with a reference of 104dB@500Hz(so we'll be near 109dB at 1kHz on the ER2XR I guess), is a testimony to how little you understand THD measurements despite bringing them up all the time. and it's not like I didn't try to explain stuff to you about THD in various threads to the point where I'm sick of it.

In the end you did manage to mention some planars as being similar to BAs for something, you misused THD, and you threw EQ numbers in the air with no SPL reference or objective reason. I'll give you that one thing, you're consistent.

 

[earfonia]

https://imgur.com/a/iERRCiM

Here a ER4SR I had that was <0.35% at 1KHz which is on par with the Sundara & LCDX. THD dosen't become a issue unless It reaches 2 ~ 3% at 1KHz. That almost distortion free.

https://imgur.com/a/qpzheQ5

Here a ER2XR at 104db it rates 2% from 20 ~ 1.1KHz higher than even most ER4XR/ER3XR's which average 0.79% at 1KHz.

I think we all know the basic rule in IEM measurement: In general we should NOT compare measurement result from different type of measurement equipment. Especially the distortion measurement. My humble measurement equipment is no match for GRAS coupler used by Etymotic. I've tried several IEC coupler to measure distortion. Results are quite different. The IEC coupler that I use now is what I observe closest to the GRAS IEC coupler used by HypeTheSonics. But it is not a GRAS coupler, so obviously there are still differences. Another point is, distortion measurement is very sensitive to the loudness level (dB SPL) of the measurement. So for a fair comparison the measurement level must be matched.

For the sake of apple to apple comparison, here is my own distortion measurement of ER2XR and ER4XR:

And this is the comparison from HypeTheSonics database:

In both comparisons we can see the ER2XR exhibits distortion higher than the ER4XR. Interesting observation is the higher order harmonics, 4th and higher, the ER4XR seems to exhibits higher level of high order harmonics compared to ER2XR. And our human hearing is more sensitive to higher order harmonics than the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics. So THD alone doesn't really tell the whole story, I think observation of the harmonics is also important.
From my own measurements, I generally see dynamic driver IEM usually have lower THD than BA driver IEM. But there are always special cases. So generalization doesn't always work.
To me THD is not a big concern. Frequency response plays a much bigger role in sound quality. I've heard IEM costs more than 3x the price of ER2XR with lower THD measurement than ER2XR that to my ears sounds worst than ER2XR because the frequency response deviates farther from my FR target curve.

 

[BaTou069]

So what is that BA timbre ppl talk about or crinacle mentioned in his comment about the ER2SE/XE 'Slightly less detailed than the ER4, but without the usual BA timbre.'
Also ppl claiming that a single driver setup generqlly having a more cohesive sound compared to a multi BA setup (or any multi driver for that matter), as if a multi driver setup sounds like music was cut in pieces and glued together, that makes no sense to me, especially when thinking on all those Full Range speakekrs that use multiple differently sized drivers for differend FRs....

two Dark ambient

What album is that?

 

[bigshot]

There are a whole lot of vague terms in that paragraph. When people don’t know what they’re talking about, they start describing sound with words that don’t describe sound.

 

[BaTou069]

There are a whole lot of vague terms in that paragraph. When people don’t know what they’re talking about, they start describing sound with words that don’t describe sound.

Not sure if it was one of the videos in your signature or a similar one that made me laugh so hard when he reduced the bit depth bit by bit until noise was loud and clear, I think I started hearing it at around 10 bit or even less

 

[bigshot]

Yeah, it's amazing how people seem to care more about making the numbers as big as they can, rather than just listening and finding out what matters and what doesn't. This issue is a case in point. Distortion is rarely a problem with headphones. The problem is usually frequency response. Yet people chase smaller and smaller distortion numbers and ignore response.

 

[earfonia]

Let's see what do we have here:

Symphonium Helios (4-way full BA IEM) - Right - Distortion Measurement - 104dB SPL @ 500Hz:

Moondrop Kato (single Dynamic) - Right - Distortion Measurement - 104dB SPL @ 500Hz

NiceHCK X49 (single BA) - Left - Distortion Measurement - 104dB SPL @ 500Hz:

Moondrop Quarks (single Dynamic) - Left - Distortion Measurement - 104dB SPL @ 500Hz:

AudioSense T260 (Dual BA) - Left - Distortion Measurement - 104dB SPL @ 500Hz:

BLON BL-05 (single Dynamic) - Left - Distortion Measurement - 104dB SPL @ 500Hz:

Notice any pattern?

 

[Blackwoof]

That you'd do a comparison between the Ety number(measured at 100dB@1Khz on my certificate) and a measurement from @earfonia on a different rig with a reference of 104dB@500Hz(so we'll be near 109dB at 1kHz on the ER2XR I guess), is a testimony to how little you understand THD measurements despite bringing them up all the time. and it's not like I didn't try to explain stuff to you about THD in various threads to the point where I'm sick of it.

Is that a goalpost shift?, So all 3rd party ER4XR THD charts that show it at 1 ~ 1.4% are invalid because they used different gear or SPL levels?. Many who rarely ever show the Etymotic sheet that comes with It.

People claim all the time to ignore the ER4XR cause of them being 0.98 ~ 1.45% or that they distort at high volume. But then go off on how the ER2XR rates <0.2% at 1KHz when in reality it rates slightly worse than both BA XR versions. Turns out they can't hear anything on the ER4XR & ER2XR.